Remove Stan of many moons and Santa | Forums

[Bing0000]

Hey camel. I see it's not your data so I've asked you nicely to enlight me what your point is with that info. And again you are avoiding the question. The only thing it shows is someone(or more people) his opinion on how strong the cards are. I'm not even disagreeing with it. SOMM is listed there in almost the OP category so what are you even trying to show? That you were wrong and he must be nerfed?

Besides that, go read back some posts and people are also annoyed with you how you 'talk' to them, you constantly belittle them. Don't talk like that if you can't handle it yourself. You never answer questions, give no arguments, dismissing stats or even what this threatt is about. All I got out of your posts is that you actually play Adventure and most likely you play and defend this broken 'combo'.

[camelchasers]

He’s legendary, so he’s supposed to be at or near top tier. That’s the entire point of making these cards the most rare and valuable. But you’ll notice he’s not top tier, he’s already down a notch. That pretty clearly shows he’s not considered an outrageously powerful card by the larger community. By the logic you’re using here, we should just go ahead and nerf nearly all the legendary cards since they are in the upper end of the power spectrum.

I’m not avoiding anything, and I’m not belittling anyone either. You won’t find any posts where I call people idiots. I do try to disagree agreeably, but of course things can get a little sharp when people turn up the heat and start throwing personal insults and other trash around. I’ve given all kinds of stats and arguments as well. The problem seems to be that you don’t like them, and there’s little I can do about that. As always, you stay polite and I’ll do the same

But back to the point, you’re falling back on the logical fallacy that anyone who plays a theme is just defending it to protect their own OP-ness or something. Check my history and you’ll see me arguing against all kinds of nonsense nerf requests, regardless of theme. It’s usually poor play or deck builds that cause people to complain endlessly about cards, and the game would be far better served by finding massively underpowered cards to buff than going on witch hunts for every card that is good. Some people however, just see the shiny toys that beat them as the cause of their own loss. That gets really old in my opinion.

[Bing0000]

He’s legendary, so he’s supposed to be at or near top tier. That’s the entire point of making these cards the most rare and valuable. But you’ll notice he’s not top tier, he’s already down a notch. That pretty clearly shows he’s not considered an outrageously powerful card by the larger community. By the logic you’re using here, we should just go ahead and nerf nearly all the legendary cards since they are in the upper end of the power spectrum.

I’m not avoiding anything, and I’m not belittling anyone either. You won’t find any posts where I call people idiots. I do try to disagree agreeably, but of course things can get a little sharp when people turn up the heat and start throwing personal insults and other trash around. I’ve given all kinds of stats and arguments as well. The problem seems to be that you don’t like them, and there’s little I can do about that. As always, you stay polite and I’ll do the same

But back to the point, you’re falling back on the logical fallacy that anyone who plays a theme is just defending it to protect their own OP-ness or something. Check my history and you’ll see me arguing against all kinds of nonsense nerf requests, regardless of theme. It’s usually poor play or deck builds that cause people to complain endlessly about cards, and the game would be far better served by finding massively underpowered cards to buff than going on witch hunts for every card that is good. Some people however, just see the shiny toys that beat them as the cause of their own loss. That gets really old in my opinion.

I'm not saying you call people names but the way you say things can get interpreted in different ways.

Again, i'll advise you to read the topic. This was all about the Santa + SOMM 'combo'. But if you only want to talk about SOMM tell me this: How come that mega timmy his charge got a range now? Dragon slayer red will get he cone even less wide. Witchdocter Token has a very small range too. Inca only damages in a line. Satan does damage in an area and even damages FRIENDLY units. So why is SOMM only a 4 cost that deals insane damage to the whole board AND not even touches your friendly units??? And yes yes you'll start about the counters again so don't. The fact is if you don't have any spells in your hand and a Santa comes out it's instantly lost right there! Running 2 removal spells is expensive and forces you to get spam low cost hordes. Which is then an instant arrowstrom wipe.

[camelchasers]

Understood on the misinterpretation issue. That said, it’s normally only the people who don’t like my point of view who are getting all bent out of shape. But it’s fair feedback.

The problem with your statement is it’s not in any way instant. You need to play Santa (which totally telegraphs what’s coming next!) then play SOMM and hope he doesn’t get instantly blasted. 9 energy and about a 15 second delay. This is incredibly counterable, and if it happens you’re left with a useless 5 cost Santa marching up the field and a big energy hole to dig yourself out of.

I’m afraid that saying you don’t want to hear about the counters isn’t going to fly. The many counters that exist (and the time and advance warning you get to use them) are part of the reason that this combo isn’t broken. Not only spells either, as I’ve pointed out several times already.

How has it worked in your experience? I’ll be clear here to make sure you don’t take this the wrong way, but normally people complain about cards and combos that burn them but they haven’t tried to execute themselves. In this case, it’s REALLY HARD to pull off Santa/SOMM vs a skilled player. Give it a try yourself if you haven’t already. There’s a great reason the upper ladder is not filled with people playing it. It’s a high risk, high reward combo that is very counterable. Not in any way in need of a nerf.

[Bing0000]

Understood on the misinterpretation issue. That said, it’s normally only the people who don’t like my point of view who are getting all bent out of shape. But it’s fair feedback.

The problem with your statement is it’s not in any way instant. You need to play Santa (which totally telegraphs what’s coming next!) then play SOMM and hope he doesn’t get instantly blasted. 9 energy and about a 15 second delay. This is incredibly counterable, and if it happens you’re left with a useless 5 cost Santa marching up the field and a big energy hole to dig yourself out of.

I’m afraid that saying you don’t want to hear about the counters isn’t going to fly. The many counters that exist (and the time and advance warning you get to use them) are part of the reason that this combo isn’t broken. Not only spells either, as I’ve pointed out several times already.

How has it worked in your experience? I’ll be clear here to make sure you don’t take this the wrong way, but normally people complain about cards and combos that burn them but they haven’t tried to execute themselves. In this case, it’s REALLY HARD to pull off Santa/SOMM vs a skilled player. Give it a try yourself if you haven’t already. There’s a great reason the upper ladder is not filled with people playing it. It’s a high risk, high reward combo that is very counterable. Not in any way in need of a nerf.

Ok, so now we skipp over the SOMM himself.
I complain about this 'combo' because it's 75% of all my opponents. How can you even say you have a big energy hole? We already went over this but these 'MANY' counters is a joke. Only spells are counters because both SOMM and santa get played behind the new kid. Powerbind is cheap but all the other spells cost you more or equal to what Stan is. Besides that, even when your stan get blasted. Just play your pocha, swordsman or a sharon. Enough viable adventure cards with charge abilities.Or just go for a pope! Up untill 8000 now SOMM appears all the time. Saying that the combo is hard to pull off is probably why so many people play it right?! hahaha

Tell me this now: What do you do when your opponents plays a santa and you know the next one will be SOMM? However, your removal is not in hand. Just tell me what your thoughtprocess is there.The fact SOMM hits the whole board might have been balanced a year ago but just like the other legendaries he needs to be changed.

[camelchasers]

You list 3 other adventure cards as immediate follow-up that all cost 4-5 energy. It’s not reasonable at all to think your opponent has all that sitting around without any possible answer from you. You’re making up a hypothetical case where you haven’t been playing any cards.

It’s an energy hole because when Santa is played, they know SOMM is coming. There are several great counters at this point.

1. Use a removal spell or bind SOMM when he hits the board. You keep dismissing it, but this is what happens most of the time. When it does happen, you have spent 9 energy and now have only Santa to show for it (and he’s marching unprotected midfield by this point, waiting to die), while your opponent has committed only 2 (bind) 4 (bolt) or 5 (UC, trans, or even worse, CM!) to the exchange. You’re behind on the trade big time and they have more energy to follow up now. The adventure player doesn’t magically generate 5 more energy to drop Pocahontas unless you also have that energy.

2. Take out Santa quick with enforcer to bind him or DKC combined with another damage source. Alternatively, keep a high pressure flank attack up to the degree that your opponent doesn’t have the spare energy to drop SOMM until you can wipe Santa. MT is also annoying since he forces the opponent to screen Santa before dropping SOMM or else the charge will get stolen, making it an even more expensive combo to set up. This also happens faster than you’d expect.

3. If you’re short your removal spell, cycle your low cost cards and get it into play quickly. If you have a deck with only high cost cards and removals... well that’s what you get for playing so unbalanced.

4. Just say screw it and lead with a heavy tank, eating the charge and using your energy to push back fast and overwhealm. Tanks shrug off a SOMM blast and playing GWC or SER as a lead to counter vs a telegraphed Santa is a solid play.

If none of these are possible then it probably means you’re playing a deck that doesn’t have good answers to charge units (i.e. not a great ladder deck) or you got the worst possible hand to start while your opponent got the best possible one. That happens from time to time, but isn’t the fault of the cards themselves, just an annoying feature of random starting hands.

And again, adventure represents the minority of decks (aside from SH) in top 1000. That’s just a fact from the extensive data mining that Unholy Penguin does, and is backed up by official data from Buck. Disagree all you want, but it’s proven true.

[dannyb1022]

And again we gp full cirlce with this guy. I'm not going to repeat it, go read the start OR at least the title. In the link you show, SOMM is even inbetween OP and strong so are you just ignorant or what? I've also got no idea what you try to show with it so please enlighten me. There are no percentages about the themes being played like the date from Noob. For all i know you made this in excel and this is your opinion aboutt the OP-ness of the cards.

Besides the last sentence I am inclined to agree. This is only a chart that shows one person's opinion based on some other people's opinion on the strength of cards. And SOMM is indeed between OP and strong. And he is right, this chart doesn't show anything about usage % so it isn't really valid to the topic of discussion.

Also Camel, I agree DKC can be a good counter. There are lots of cards that can be a good counter. But first of all, that is 4 energy you are throwing out there, and there are way's to prevent DKC from using his warcry, such as MC, Zen's power, Swash's power, lightning, spamming units to block, etc. It is not a guaranteed always effective counter to SOMM and that is my point. Sure there are effective ways to deal with him, but when he is successfully played on the back line behind a push by a competent player, the only effective counter is a spell, and if you use 4+ energy and lose the push because of that, you will lose the bar and possibly the game. That isn't any fault to the player when you are playing against a card that has that kind of capability, at a 4 energy cost to end up taking upwards of 15+ energy worth of cards PER smite.

[camelchasers]

If he takes out 15+ energy, then you’re guilty of the greatest sin in SPPD. Overcommitment. Don’t put so much stuff on the board if you don’t have any ability to protect it, particularly when you’re playing against themes that will punish you for throwing out too much without thought (adventure and even worse, fantasy!).

And that chart is subject to a huge amount of community feedback. It’s updated every month and debated heavily. I hold WAY more stock in it than I do the random data collected by one user here or there.

[Bing0000]

You list 3 other adventure cards as immediate follow-up that all cost 4-5 energy. It’s not reasonable at all to think your opponent has all that sitting around without any possible answer from you. You’re making up a hypothetical case where you haven’t been playing any cards.

It’s an energy hole because when Santa is played, they know SOMM is coming. There are several great counters at this point.

1. Use a removal spell or bind SOMM when he hits the board. You keep dismissing it, but this is what happens most of the time. When it does happen, you have spent 9 energy and now have only Santa to show for it (and he’s marching unprotected midfield by this point, waiting to die), while your opponent has committed only 2 (bind) 4 (bolt) or 5 (UC, trans, or even worse, CM!) to the exchange. You’re behind on the trade big time and they have more energy to follow up now. The adventure player doesn’t magically generate 5 more energy to drop Pocahontas unless you also have that energy.

2. Take out Santa quick with enforcer to bind him or DKC combined with another damage source. Alternatively, keep a high pressure flank attack up to the degree that your opponent doesn’t have the spare energy to drop SOMM until you can wipe Santa. MT is also annoying since he forces the opponent to screen Santa before dropping SOMM or else the charge will get stolen, making it an even more expensive combo to set up. This also happens faster than you’d expect.

3. If you’re short your removal spell, cycle your low cost cards and get it into play quickly. If you have a deck with only high cost cards and removals... well that’s what you get for playing so unbalanced.

4. Just say screw it and lead with a heavy tank, eating the charge and using your energy to push back fast and overwhealm. Tanks shrug off a SOMM blast and playing GWC or SER as a lead to counter vs a telegraphed Santa is a solid play.

If none of these are possible then it probably means you’re playing a deck that doesn’t have good answers to charge units (i.e. not a great ladder deck) or you got the worst possible hand to start while your opponent got the best possible one. That happens from time to time, but isn’t the fault of the cards themselves, just an annoying feature of random starting hands.

And again, adventure represents the minority of decks (aside from SH) in top 1000. That’s just a fact from the extensive data mining that Unholy Penguin does, and is backed up by official data from Buck. Disagree all you want, but it’s proven true.

If you look at the Facts that Anti-Deranker posted 74% plays Adventure so i don't understand how you can call that the minority.For your suggestions:

1. I agree that spells are the only way of dealing with it, However 64% plays adv/mystic which means that a youghtpastor negates all of these counters. Spellbind works but if you're not fast enough and the present of Santa arrives at SOMM he can still use that charge.

2. And you were talking about a power hole? Here you suugest to use 6 energy to hopefully take out Santa. Any followup next to Santa could save him.

3. Ok cycle through you cheap stuff but then what when you have no energey for your high cost removal spell? Only thing your opponent has to play is santa SOMM and your cheap crap gets wiped instantly.

4. This one is a joke mate. I don't think there is any tank that could one on one Santa. Whatever your opponent plays you with with SOMM. 12 sec, when SOMM is around the midfield, you get another wipe. You have no chance overwhelming your opponent.


You can suggest all these options but none of them are really viable. You always lose in energy against this and the only way to win is hoping that your opponent has a bad draw.

[camelchasers]

If you look at the Facts that Anti-Deranker posted 74% plays Adventure so i don't understand how you can call that the minority.For your suggestions:

1. I agree that spells are the only way of dealing with it, However 64% plays adv/mystic which means that a youghtpastor negates all of these counters. Spellbind works but if you're not fast enough and the present of Santa arrives at SOMM he can still use that charge.

2. And you were talking about a power hole? Here you suugest to use 6 energy to hopefully take out Santa. Any followup next to Santa could save him.

3. Ok cycle through you cheap stuff but then what when you have no energey for your high cost removal spell? Only thing your opponent has to play is santa SOMM and your cheap crap gets wiped instantly.

4. This one is a joke mate. I don't think there is any tank that could one on one Santa. Whatever your opponent plays you with with SOMM. 12 sec, when SOMM is around the midfield, you get another wipe. You have no chance overwhelming your opponent.


You can suggest all these options but none of them are really viable. You always lose in energy against this and the only way to win is hoping that your opponent has a bad draw.

I have no idea how he sliced the data to get those figures. He sent me the link (and I shared it as well in this thread) and he must have pulled out a weird small slice from somewhere. If you pull the top 1000 players, you get the figures I showed you. I can’t make it more clear than that. Here’s a link to a screenshot I took when pulling my data:

http://imgur.com/6CEaMPf

In all your responses, you just ignore that Santa has a charge time and that the adventure player has to spend energy to do things. It also assumes that you fumble all your responses (misplaying PB too late for example). Let’s start with the basic assumption that both players are competent.

So again, I ask you. Have you actually tried the combo yourself? The way you write it (and dismiss all the well proven responses I’ve shared) make it seem like you see it as an unbeatable play. You don’t always lose energy and it isn’t in any way unbeatable. Have you played it? It doesn’t seem so to me.

*edit*
Wait a sec, did you also write that no tank can go 1v1 with Santa. No man, that’s just not right. Again let’s assume equal levels (each coming to play with lv4 legendaries). GWC has over 3000 HP and SER has over 2k I believe. They’ll take a hit from SOMM and buy plenty of time tanking Santa while you respond. This tells me again that your responses are theoretical.