Senior Member
I am not assuming. I actually put full effort into describing situations, rather than coming from a point of "I can't play the card, so it's not broken." Not once have I said I am terrible with SOMM, but others use him against me, so he must be broken.Originally Posted by camelchasers Go to original post
I talk about energy conservation all the time. That is my main focus in every game. I conserve energy, then I put enough cards down that can't be defended against when I know I am up on energy, but not too much that I am wasting energy. Sometimes I make bad plays... I am not perfect... but there are times where if they put SOMM down there is absolutely nothing I can do about it when I already have cards down and we are having somewhat of an epic battle. And if it's a Santa deck, they can instant nuke my defense. Even if I transmog SOMM before he gets his power off that is still energy lost.
So again, you can see I am pointing towards a real situation in which I can not possibly defend against SOMM.
Also, this thread is about Santa/SOMM being a combo that really puts SOMM over the top. Scott never mentioned using Santa. He just said "my SOMM was countered every time". If you play Santa, SOMM, and either Pope or YPC (or both), generally you can get the combo out and use it. It is very rare that people can keep constantly taking out units that are behind your NK. BTW, Santa is Poped all the time if I transmog him. And if I don't and save it for SOMM, I lose energy and then SOMM gets Poped. This maybe sounds like a rare occurrence to you but this happens all the time in Santa/SOMM decks when I face them. I can't speak for other people, but that's my experience.
I try as hard as I can to not make blanket statements. I try as hard as I can to provide evidence and testimony and even do the math to show how SOMM, when countered by anything other than powerbind and LB will almost always lose you energy, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot, and rarely can you take him out and have an advantage energy trade. People like Scott come in and say "SOMM is balanced. He doesn't need a nerf, nothing wrong with him." and that is super annoying, unhelpful, and the down comforter blanket of blanket statements. In the other thread he used the usual "Every spell + powerbind + enforcer can counter SOMM" statement, and that only points out a very low number of cards, only 1 of them actually being a unit, and most of them lose energy to SOMM, some of them not even as effective as you would hope. Like when SOMM comes out behind Santa, is slowed down, and Santa is already charged, enforcer will not stop that.
If you think of just about any other card and the counters to it, there are countless and they involve actual units, not just a handful of cards that are 99% spells. I don't care how many times you say "you need to have half your deck spells", I sit at 2 spells, a removal and mind control, and I don't want to add any more than that, nor should I have to JUST TO DEAL WITH 1 ANNOYING CARD.
All this is my defense of my position on SOMM. No blanket statements, I did my best at holding back opinions and just using facts. I give you the math to figure out energy trades. And I argued against the constant statements such as "You can use spells to counter SOMM so he is not overpowered" and "His charge is very slow, so he is not overpowered". I know the exact arguments that SOMM fans try to make and they just don't hold water. Everyone can say the stuff, but that doesn't mean it isn't based almost entirely in opinion.
Senior Member
Sure, but I didn’t start the conversation with “he’s fine” statements. I gave you tons of counters and plays to work around him as well as explanations why he’s in no way top dog in the current meta. They all get blown off. Eventually all that’s left is more “he’s fine” vs “he’s not”.
At it’s most basic though, if you’re playing against adventure, why not always, always, always ensure you are holding a removal card? Even if they are playing Santa too, you’ll have time to charge up the energy to snipe SOMM the second he hits the board. And if they’re playing YPC, go hard offense and don’t give them the chance to build the combo, or stall and eat a charge with a heavy tank and retaliate. And if they’re playing Pope too, then you have to have your own game plan, because now they’ve burned through like 18 energy and you should have some kind deck strategy of your own in the face of an energy hog combo like that.
SOMM charging slow isn’t an opinion, it’s a fact. And his 2nd charge is CRAZY slow.
Spells readily counter SOMM and you’ll have plenty of time to use them. Not opinion. Fact.
There are counters aplenty, and he’s worth a 1 point negative trade in the right situation if you can’t get at him with units.
Nobody said half your deck needs to be spells. If you play a removal and MC you have more than enough tools to deal with him.
But what you do want, an easy button to counter him flawlessly every single time without possible fail, doesn’t exist. And that’s a great thing in my book.
Senior Member
I never said "I want an easy counter to SOMM". I just don't want every single unit I place on the board to get nuked. Arrowstorm already does that, and it's only a 1 time use and nowhere near as strong. I want to strategically be able to take out SOMM with rangers, and know that even if his power goes off I don't lose my entire side of the board. I should not lose a unit that I place behind my NK to SOMM. Simple as that. The only other non-spell cards with that option are HHC (RNG), DKC (risky move, and at most if it's a 4 cost maybe that's an even trade), Imp (RNG and does not actually take out the unit), President (RNG and level dependant). And those are only able to hit 1 unit, so a swarm could easily thwart any of those cards. SOMM has no limit. He attacks every unit on the board with no range, and that is unfair... plain and simple. All it takes is getting his charge available, which Santa allows to happen almost instantly.
And obviously transmog and MC aren't enough to deal with SOMM or else I wouldn't be posting here defending my side on SOMM being overpowered. Noob has been claiming a damage decrease would fix SOMM but I actually disagree on that. I am not looking for any nerf, I am looking for a specific nerf to add actual strategy to playing SOMM. Giving him a range would not allow players to use decks that are built around keeping him alive, in the back, and spamming his ability.
Since you are so interested in cards that can take out SOMM, I am going to make a list of cards and whether they have viability on defending against SOMM:
Note that these are all cards placed in anticipation of SOMM or for SOMM specifically when he is place on the board, not other cards. So when I say wasted energy, I just mean specifically for SOMM. Also, most of these involve the situation of Santa being paired and trapping SOMM in back, not just placing SOMM and letting him come to mid board.
Counters that usually work, but may lose you energy:
LB(anti-counter YPC prior or may be Poped)
UC(anti-counter YPC prior or may be Poped)
Power Bind (May be purified at an equal energy trade, or anti-countered by YPC prior)
Transmog (SOMM may be Poped, or anti-countered by YPC prior)
C()ck Magic (Swarm cards can prevent this, but this one one of the truly decent counters to Santa/SOMM combo. Anti-counter by YPC prior)
Tupperware (Weak off-tank but he can absorb SOMM's hit without losing HP so... ok)
Mysterion (At least he revives. Anti-counter is transmog)
Counters with RNG or level dependent, and may be anti-countered:
HHC (anti-counter swarm or may be Poped)
FB (anti-counter YPC prior or may be Poped)
Incan (only able to defeat a weaker SOMM, and will not hit him if trapped behind NK with Santa or may be Poped)
Imp
Herc (anti-counter using MC or body blocking)
President (anti-counter using swarm or powerbind or may be Poped)
Enforcer (anit-counter by blocking SOMM from walking and keeping him far back)
AQR (Will still get hit. Anti-counter is purify or shaman or may be Poped)
MC (anti-counter is purify. Also blocking SOMM to keep him in back. Also, anti-countered by YPC prior)
Alien Clyde (anti-counter is purify or swarm. also he will still get hit or may be Poped)
DKC (anti-counter is body block, keep SOMM behind a tank, mind control, or may be Poped)
Absorb hit losing health (Health equates to energy spent on the card) This category highly depends on card levels and may result in instant death if underleveled or against a high level SOMM:
BMM
Swordsman
MWS (depending on level of SOMM and MWS)
SOMM
Poc
Swash Red
Sheriff Cartman
Zen
Medusa
Maxi
WDT
Sexy Nun
Friar
Poseidon
Satan (Tough placing, but it depends on if the opponent already has an army headed your way prior to placing SOMM)
Santa
Towelie
PCP
Dogpoo
T&P
Marcus
BGA
Mackey
MBP
Nelly
Classi
Barbrady
Mimsy
Mecha
Awesom-o
SER
SWT
Program
SMW
Witch
GWC
Sorceress
Mr. Slave
STG
Mosquito (will lose his healing swarm)
Dr Tim
Toolshed
Coon
No Counter, instant death (Also level dependent, but am going with the reasonable levels of cards for most people around legendary arena status):
Barrel Dougie
Pirate Timmy
Captain Wendy
Deckhand Butters
Gunslinger
Sally
Hermes
Prophet
Cupid
Angel
Scout
Hankey
Rats
Terrance M
Nathan
Pigeon
Marvin
Visitors
BHK
Powerfist
Monkey
Robo
Astro
Gizmo
Ice Sniper
Gnomes
Catapult
Dwarf Dougie
Pally
Princess
Amazing Randy
EKB
BELF (This depends on if she has eaten cards yet. She MIGHT survive)
CKI
Drow Elf
HK (Good if no opponent Santa, bad if there is. He will die, but protect all units under him if timed right)
Captain
Wasted Energy move/May or may not instant death:
Arrowstorm
Outlaw (Can not take out SOMM with his dynamite)
Ninjew
YPC
Pope (hard to place on list, but this is not a good time to Pope)
Energy Staff
Hallelujah
Regen
Purify
Jesus
Warboy
Cyborg
Poison
Hyperdrive
Marine
Freeze
Coop
RT
DSR (No help if SOMM is behind NK)
Le Bard
Robin Tweek
Call Girl (Also hard to place on list, but she will get obliterated and whatever you spawn will lose health as well)
Super Fart
Chomper (have to wait for SOMM to come to your side, and won't kill him)
Chaos (Potential to counter, but must wait for SOMM to be close to mid line and must be in the front. As soon as he is unfrozen, Chaos gets smited)
Lava (Gotta wait for him to come to your side)
Unsure:
Alien Drone (I don't know if it ignores SOMM's blast. Not enough information to be sure)
DMC (Might survive? I didn't look up health so I'm not 100% sure. If he does have more HP than SOMM's hit, it's not much)
Mayor (This is still up for debate as being viable counter to SOMM, as not enough people have leveled and experienced)
Mint-Berry (Also hard to place, but would need to be paired with some sort of healing to bring your units back. By itself, not a good counter)
Let me end this post by saying I do not count absorbing hits as not losing energy. If a card that costs 5 energy and has a power loses 50% of it's health that is approximately 2 energy lost, depending on the power's energy value, which normally I attribute 1 or 2 energy to the value of a power. Cards that nearly die but don't actually die have still lost a significant portion of their value and become very weak, easy to take out.
Senior Member
You won't get "every single unit you place on the board nuked" if you deal with him properly, of which there are many options. You start right off with hyperbole again. I know you don't like his board-wide effect, but that's the entire reason he is good. Take it away (as I've argued many times) and you're left with a subpar legendary who will die even MORE than he does now without getting a charge off.
You take away all the upside of the card while trying to saddle your opponent with all the risk. Totally unfair, and a great way to destroy cards.
You also want to be able to kill him at your leisure with ranged units. Sorry, too bad. You need to work harder than that. This is exactly what I'm talking about with your search for an easymode way to just delete him without risk.
You also attempt to argue that you're not asking for a nerf, while simultaneously arguing for a MASSIVE NERF! No idea how these two parts are supposed to fit together.
As for your long, list, I see you write pope and YPC many, many times as a way to dismiss removals. Doesn't work that way. YPC telegraphs what's coming and we've already discussed optimal ways to respond, and Pope is something everyone should know how to deal with by now. Besides, if he uses Pope to bring back SOMM, that guarantees SOMM will be further forward on his initial placement, making him easier to engage (even with ranged cards) and a prime mind control target. If you're giving your opponent enough energy advantage where he's able to have a charged Santa on the board as well as a Pope cast ready for SOMM? That means you've lost the game already and it's not SOMM's fault for the loss that's going to happen.
For your final point, it's also not so cut and dry. Units block space and deal full damage the same at 10% health as they do at 100% health. All that matters is the killing blow. Partial removal is a waste of energy if you aren't able to quickly follow up with a kill shot, and using tanks to soak big hits like this is an excellent way to blunt AOE abilities so you can strike back with your more fragile forces afterward.
Junior Member
Btw: Saw the counter list and all and I see the effort. Truly you see unfairness in this combo, but if you fight a combo you can't expect to be able to fight it with one card. If your opponent spends 9 energy you have at least 9 energy to counter. If he spends 15 (Pope) you have 15 energy to counter. This way the counter list is getting longer and longer. And what if you don't have the right cards at hand? Yes it's probably always game over. It's a card game. Ever played MTG? Sometimes it is just bad luck. But you can always be sure, your opponent doesn't want to have it your way.
Senior Member
I think you hit on an important part German, this is a card game and RNG is always going to be a factor. It is what it is, and some people just really don't like that aspect. I remember in the early days lots of posts demanding a nerf or change to HHC because of his RNG factor. Clearly the developers don't have a problem with it since more cards have been released since that rely heavily on this aspect (President Garrison has the exact same mechanics RNG wise), but it will probably continue to frustrate some players.
Similar to the case we're debating here. Card order is a big deal, and it determines if combos like YPC/Santa/SOMM/Pope have any traction at all or if the deck completely melts under its own card order reliance and energy cost weight. Same as your ability to counter. You draw your counters at the right time? Then SOMM is just killed immediately. If not? Well then you might have an issue.
The trick is to make your opponent waste their counters by baiting them out with something else. That could mean baiting out a removal spell with a big tank like GWC, which I do quite a bit. Even if I take one energy loss on the trade, it's worth it to safely get SOMM onto the board. Of course this doesn't work against mystical since they might be packing power bind which is a straight up hard counter and a big loss for me. Contra this point, it may be better to use SOMM to draw out their removal so I can safely get a big cost card like GWC into play and anchor a push. But then you have to be on the lookout for DSR if you're up against fantasy. RNG and baiting is a huge part of the strategy.
Senior Member
Lot to unpack here.
1. I said I don't want "any" nerf to SOMM. Meaning I don't just want him to be nerfed for nerf sake. I want a reasonable nerf that doesn't give him the ability to instantly wipe out any of the units I listed in my "No counter, instant death" column. That means giving his power a range. So far the only 2 nerfs on the table are limit range and decrease ability strength by 20%. I personally remember when he could ALMOST take out the units and that was when he was actually considered weak. I realize the difference of the two. Being able to take out units completely is an important part of the card. That being said, I never thought his range was fair, ever since release, and no matter how you word it I really don't see any way you can defend him and say his power (the most important part of this discussion) is not hugely overpowered and not stronger than every other unit's power. Again comparing him to Satan, Satan's ability is a warcry, SOMM's is a rechargeable ability. Satan's power has range, SOMM's is infinite. Satan hit's both team's units, SOMM only hits the other team. Yet you say "Satan is one of the strongest legendaries in the game". You should see the look of confusion on my face.
1.5. No I don't like the board-wide effect, and no I don't think taking that away would make him weak. WDT is a playable 4 cost legendary. His increase in health and AP over SOMM is there because WDT has virtually no range. He has to be right next to the unit. You can take him out with range unit's and multiple different strategies, and he isn't considered a weak legendary. I see him constantly in Mystical decks, and there are even players out there who claim he should be considered overpowered. So with Satan having a range and WDT having a range, there should be no reason 2 good-great legendaries should be any indication that SOMM having a range would no longer make him viable. It certainly wouldn't make him overpowered anymore, but certainly viable. A walking fireball that costs less energy than fireball that can be used multiple times, that has a greater range, that can be charged instantly with Santa (in emergencies only), that only costs 4 energy is a very usable card in my book.
2. You don't have to rip apart my list of every single card in the game. I am quite sure plenty of things are up for interpenetration and different opinions. YPC telegraphs a POSSIBLE future combo, not always guaranteed. Sometimes the NK throws out a Dougie. Sometimes they use YPC to just put it back in rotation. And as far as Pope, what do you mean "Pope is something everyone should know how to deal with by now". A 6 energy card that puts out 2 units, where the 1 unit that revives can cost upwards of 7 energy that can only be stopped by a well-timed removal? Pope is massively massively overpowered. My goodness. That card has been overpowered since before the decrease in energy cost. But even with all the players that think that, RL hasn't touched it, so I have been assuming they are fine with it being overpowered and have just accepted it, with no anticipation of any soon future changes.
I am not a bad player. I am not a perfect player either. I am an experienced player that knows this game very very well, and more often than not only only lose when I am simply out-leveled in cards, and even when I am out-leveled I can still sometimes get the draw or even win with really smart plays. That being said I can win against SOMM. I never considered him to be an instant win card. Some of my cards are extremely strong combos that are extremely risky, because if the opponent plays Arrowstorm, I am immediately down energy and have to work hard to get back to even or more ideally have the advantage.
I have played game after game after game after game after game after game after game after game of the opponent starting with Santa and following up with SOMM, and that has been, by far, no matter which deck I use or which account I am on, the only combo to nearly guarantee a loss or at very least, a difficult upcoming match. Whether I transmog the santa, or transmog SOMM, or hold off on playing cards, or play lots of cards, it will always end up starting me off with a disadvantage on energy, as well as units coming toward me that would be able to push to my NK without any way of being able to defend the attack by SOMM.
I have also used the combo myself countless times. It works super super well... when it works. Which usually involves the opponent have lightning always available or powerbind. Anything else and I usually get the win. It takes no skill to use, and takes lots of skill and expertise and tons of RNG to be able to counter. All that said about one card will make him always considered nothing less than overpowered.
Let us compare one last card that isn't considered overpowered. Kyle of the Drow Elves. His power is a very good power. Charge time is very similar to SOMM. They both have infinite range. Both are 4 cost. What's the differences? Why are we considering SOMM overpowered, and not Kyle of the Drow Elves?
Senior Member
1. Disagree with both, but that shouldn’t be a surprise by now and I’ve made my counter arguments pretty clear I think. WDT has a completely different effect with his healing, so comparing him directly to SOMM in terms or range is not productive. Satan also has a dramatically different purpose (and is instant cast!). These are false comparisons based on only one aspect of the card. I’ve replied before that you can’t just pull one aspect of a card and make comparisons in a vacuum. Doesn’t work. It’s a full package.
2. Yeah, pope is still really good, but people know how to anticipate and snipe him by now. I still wouldn’t mind if his warcry was a tad slower, but I’ve even interrupted his warcry with fireball a few times. Removing him before he summons usually results in a loss for the opponent. As for any future nerf to him? I wouldn’t count on it. They decreased some of his stats awhile back and seem to be fine with it. And in the current swarm meta he’s not used nearly as much as he was a few months ago.
One thing you should consider is that this is perhaps the paper to your rock. I still think a removal and MC is more than enough to give you a fighting chance against any SOMM deck, but if you consistently lose to it you might want to think about switching things up a bit. The game is all about counters, and some decks will simply struggle against others. Right now I’ve built mine specifically to counter the sci/fan swarm meta (while still retaining as much ability to take out high HP units as I can) and it’s working well. But sometimes I just come up against a deck type that is damn hard to put down. Beefy myst/fan with ninjew is for sure an issue for me.
But do I come and call for nerfs to ninjew and WDT? Nope! Adapt and overcome brother. There’s just not nearly enough evidence on the ladder or the tier list that SOMM is dominant in any way (even with Santa). He may be your kryptonite, but the larger community (and the devs themselves) consider him just fine as he is.
And Drow Kyle is horrible. Let’s not compare a bad rare with a good legendary. If anything, that boy needs a buff of some kind.
Senior Member
If you take away Stan's power, would you consider him the same as Heidi? Because SOMM has better stats. By a long shot. No power, 2 cost, and max level 7 Heidi has the same stats as a mid level 3 SOMM. I am not 100% sure about speed difference, but he does attack faster than Heidi. In fact, at max level 3 SOMM has better stats than any 2 cost card. That means his power costs 2. Power bind removes that power and turns him into a 2 cost card. Cards are technically package deals, sure, but power bind does not remove SOMM, just turns him into a 2 cost warrior. That is the reason I give his power it's own category. You aren't winning me over by saying that nerfing Stan's power would make him not viable because he could still die quickly. He won't die faster than any other 2 cost card. And his power would still be strong. He would still be able to wipe out Satan sized areas in fireball fashion. That's not overpowered, but still very strong. I don't understand how you think that it's not strong. You anticipate SOMM will be up front, unprotected, and easy to take out in a second before he uses his power. What kind of morons do you play against that allow that to happen????
As far as Pope, if you use your instant removal before his use, he is unstoppable. Unless you have multiple removals... Which is not really viable in any normal deck. And would require you to have 9 energy at the ready minimum, more likely 10. Instant remove Santa, he get's Poped, you would have to have at least 4 energy if you have LB, 5 energy if you have 2 hard removals. Your thinking is so lateral on this. You think of being able to stop a card as if you instantly have whatever spell required to counter it. That's so ridiculous. Not only is that based on RNG, but that is so limiting based on the cards you can use. You can't always just keep using spells and tanks to thwart every option of a SOMM/Santa encounter. I can't give exact percentages, but based on my experience in all the times I have played against a SOMM deck I rarely have the exact spells and cards at the ready to be able to limit SOMM's damage. And stop with the whole "fix your deck" comment. I already told you again and again I have MULTIPLE decks, MULTIPLE themes, and MULTIPLE accounts where I can use a HUGE variety of separate units.
I would need to be very careful about what I place I can't just use all "absorb SOMM blow" units. On top of them being weakened by his smite, it's very expensive on energy, and they can just use rangers and assassins to finish off my cards, building up an army in the process. RNG may be a factor in card games, which I've played plenty of. I also played chess. I've played MOBAs. I've played RTS games. And in every game there has never been a card or unit that had the ability SOMM does. It's not strategy. It's not RNG. You can't play around SOMM. There isn't feasible options in every deck, and there shouldn't HAVE to be, just to deal with ONE CARD. You MUST take him out, EVERY TIME he comes on the board. You MUST use spells to avoid his power from being used ESPECIALLY if Santa is on the board, power ready. And you can NOT put down any units that will use you significant energy, while at the same time not remaining at 10 energy losing energy as the seconds tick by.
This whole argument is ridiculous. You are arguing against someone that has multiple decks and themes in different tiers of legendary, while you sit at the top in your perfected deck. You don't have the experience of playing with lower level cards and trying to have variety. And you make every argument about what you can do to stop SOMM from going off being the ability to stop him or counter him at any point with whatever you have in your hand. And you rally people around you who probably have lightning in their deck and whenever they know SOMM is in the deck, they save their lightning for that card, or have powerbind and know to use it on him, therefore nullifying his power and making him seem like a smaller problem card than he really is. I listed 18/128 cards that can deal with SOMM... that is TOO low, and most of them have the ability to be anti-countered in some way, which means they aren't perfect options just somewhat possible options.
I want variety. I want choice. And I am not alone on feeling this way. If it was just me fighting for a SOMM nerf I would have stopped long ago.
Senior Member
Well, it is kinda just you on the nerf train at least now that the other two seem to have left. The tier list, the community on discord, even the devs agree he’s fine. But I also like variety. Thing is though, I can handle SOMM fine with a variety of decks and themes. You also keep making stuff up about me. First I’m a whale, then I’m a SOMM ultra-defender who isn’t arguing in good faith, now I’m only capable of playing one deck. I run every theme pretty well aside from sci-fi, and can hold with just about any of them at good rank. Of course I do better with some than others, but variety is the spice of life. And plenty of people who don’t play adventure (you know, the majority of players in top 1000) deal with him just fine. Bolt isn’t the only answer. And neither is powerbind. You have the counters in your own deck too. I can’t explain why they aren’t working for you, they work for others.
And to be honest, I’m kinda done with this back and forth. Every point is just dismissed and the responses are just relisted again and again and again and....
If you have any new points, I’d be interested to hear them. But none of your current ones have changed my mind whatsoever. We’re not going to agree on this one it seems.
But he’s not getting nerfed according to the devs, so I’m feeling like things will continue unchanged.
