Option selects and where the fight team stands. | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

Like if say shaman throws a heavy and feints to GB. Armu can just send a heavy out and shamans GB will fail and guarantee the damage from armu. If armu feints the heavy then he is guaranteed to get gaurdbroken and be punished.

So the shaman can punish with a parry or dodge heavy depending on the armus behaviour. or even use her mixup as intended. But best case scenario is that armu is getting heavy damage.

Same thing here happens with jorm and shaman. Jorm can be more easily caught in the heavy soft feint unless he parried super early where his GB frames already passed before GB soft feint so he could also get a free heavy.

But for the aramusha if shaman does say the heavy soft feint to bleed then letting a heavy fly will guarantee that shaman lands an attack for no trade putting her down for the win. But jorm will HA through the attack causing a trade where shaman loses more health than the jorm.

I think about it like this. You know what characters have low GB heavies so if you see them abuse it you can punish them just the same as people who overuse HA to escape mixups

Edit: of course there are basically no other hero’s on the roster with a soft feint mixup as solid as shaman so it doesn’t necessarily mean that this is a great justification

I think your example at the start only works out if one of them is messing up. If shaman throws a heavy and buffers the feint into GB then it would catch aramusha trying to feint on reaction to a feint. However if shaman feints on reaction to seeing a heavy and then aramusha reacts to the feint shaman shouldn't be getting a GB in that scenario.

The issue i'm having is if you do bait that option select and parry it shaman gets far less damage compared to Musha's 40. (as a specific example.)
Soft feint GB's used to be better at catching things because they used to be faster than feint into GB. Now that feint into GB is 300ms the only real difference as far as I know is there is no feint smoke to react to. (well aside from centurion's extra benefit but that's unique to him.)

the difference though is that baiting a parry is always going to net you less damage for a harder read versus dodging a HA move and then GBing them after. I'll just try to clarify my position again. The issue isn't (in option selects case) that you are unable to punish their use of the OS. it's that it's significantly safer for them to attempt it because they have less to lose for doing so. Versus someone attempting to bait the OS for a parry. In other words it's favoring the defender too much.

[Knight_Raime]

If mushmush were to lose his low GB heavy I would hope that it doesn’t happen unless he sees a rework or hefty buff. As he is now I feel he would be the worst hero in the game if he lost that. It’s one of the only ways he can ‘open’ an enemy.

yes I wouldn't advocate for such a big change if he weren't going to be compensated in some fashion.

[LightUpTheEyes]

I have a handful of reps with the hero and that's never been a thing in my experiences. Further more there is nothing on the information hub to point to this.
So i'm more willing to bet you're simply having poor reaction times than believing that the competitive players collectively have missed out on such a thing.

But for argument sake let's assume you're correct. That shouldn't be a thing for musha or anyone else involved in feinting a basic heavy. Lower GB vulnerabilities heavies are fundamentally unhealthy for the game. Certainly when you can do things like throw a 40 damage neutral heavy like Musha. There isn't much else I can say beyond what i've already said. The risk to reward ratio is not balanced for these types of attacks.

Please Knight, the competitive community can miss things and you don't know everything. I've spent so much time with Aramusha that I know what I'm talking about. I urge you to test it, he is absolutely 100% vulnerable to gbs on feint. There is no arguing that at all.

You are focusing way too much on the dmg numbers dude. Of course Aramusha is overtuned in the dmg category. He doesn't have much else, but at some point he will get his hero improvements and those numbers will come down.

If for example raider throws his neutral zone and Aramusha throws his side heavy for parry or to counter the gb mix up. If raider feints the zone to parry the heavy or it makes Ara feint his heavy on reaction then Ara can get guard broken very easily. That's the trade off. I'm not sure the specific ms window for when he is vulnerable because I'm never speed tested it, but I'll say it again. He is 100% vulnerable.

Edit: Plus, what competitive tournament player is going to play Aramusha? They want to win. Which is why you only see like 5 characters being played in any tournament. I've got 70 reps on Aramusha, If I was a betting man I'd be willing to bet that's more than all the competitive scene combined in the character.

[Knight_Raime]

Please Knight, the competitive community can miss things and you don't know everything. I've spent so much time with Aramusha that I know what I'm talking about. I urge you to test it, he is absolutely 100% vulnerable to gbs on feint. There is no arguing that at all.

You are focusing way too much on the dmg numbers dude. Of course Aramusha is overtuned in the dmg category. He doesn't have much else, but at some point he will get his hero improvements and those numbers will come down.

If for example raider throws his neutral zone and Aramusha throws his side heavy for parry or to counter the gb mix up. If raider feints the zone to parry the heavy or it makes Ara feint his heavy on reaction then Ara can get guard broken very easily. That's the trade off. I'm not sure the specific ms window for when he is vulnerable because I'm never speed tested it, but I'll say it again. He is 100% vulnerable.

Edit: Plus, what competitive tournament player is going to play Aramusha? They want to win. Which is why you only see like 5 characters being played in any tournament. I've got 70 reps on Aramusha, If I was a betting man I'd be willing to bet that's more than all the competitive scene combined in the character.

I am not discounting the possibility. I am merely stating it's not very believable for me. A vast majority of my playtime is on centurion. I still learned things about him. Being a main doesn't exclude you from being wrong about your hero in some fashion. I respect your opinion and potential knowledge. But i'm not going to accept it as fact just because he's your main. I don't do that for anyone.
Of course i'm focusing on the damage. that's literally why the low vulnerability is a problem. It's not an argument I need to make in the first place. I know the developers are against low GB quick heavies. They will be dealt with at some point.

Your edit means nothing. Craic has been playing Jorge on stream frequently. Clutchmeister was recently on Centurion. Tournament level players don't exclusively play the best heros when it comes to standard matchmaking. They even use off meta heros in pick up games. None of this is relevant and that's 100% a bet you'd lose. But i'm done responding here.

You asked where the devs stood on something. I told you where they did. I didn't come here to argue with you about your personal feelings regarding option selects and i've entertained that enough.

[LightUpTheEyes]

I am not discounting the possibility. I am merely stating it's not very believable for me. A vast majority of my playtime is on centurion. I still learned things about him. Being a main doesn't exclude you from being wrong about your hero in some fashion. I respect your opinion and potential knowledge. But i'm not going to accept it as fact just because he's your main. I don't do that for anyone.
Of course i'm focusing on the damage. that's literally why the low vulnerability is a problem. It's not an argument I need to make in the first place. I know the developers are against low GB quick heavies. They will be dealt with at some point.

Your edit means nothing. Craic has been playing Jorge on stream frequently. Clutchmeister was recently on Centurion. Tournament level players don't exclusively play the best heros when it comes to standard matchmaking. They even use off meta heros in pick up games. None of this is relevant and that's 100% a bet you'd lose. But i'm done responding here.

You asked where the devs stood on something. I told you where they did. I didn't come here to argue with you about your personal feelings regarding option selects and i've entertained that enough.

You're focusing on the wrong aspect of it. Once they nerf his damage (which they will) then your entire argument is invalidated. you won't be getting massive damage off of it at that point.
It doesn't really matter to me if you don't want to except anything I say or anybody else says as fact or even bother to look into it, but that's
just ignorant on your side. Especially when you present the opposite as fact, and yes you did already discount the possibility by saying he can't unless they put a stealth patch in. When in fact he has been like that since he released.

I tell you why I have a problem with zone option selects and you immediately try to discredit why I have a problem with it by telling me it's my opinion. In no way is pressing one input (Zone) only to get a different outcome (parry) which have one of the same inputs as parry intended. It's tech, a glitch in the system. It should not be in there. Much like unlock tech back in the day. A very low degree to what unlock tech was, but still. Low gb heavies are intended at least at the moment, even if the devs don't like it and will at some point fix them. There is also a little balance to it because at least Aramusha (I'm not sure about the others) can't cgb off a feint so he will get punished if he makes a wrong read.
So that's exactly why I don't like Zone option selects.
I do not like things that are not intended being in the game. I like playing games that have minimal bugs and glitches and I'll gladly tell my concern to anyone about them.

I appreciate your initial response by the way.

[Knight_Raime]

You're focusing on the wrong aspect of it. Once they nerf his damage (which they will) then your entire argument is invalidated. you won't be getting massive damage off of it at that point.
It doesn't really matter to me if you don't want to except anything I say or anybody else says as fact or even bother to look into it, but that's
just ignorant on your side. Especially when you present the opposite as fact, and yes you did already discount the possibility by saying he can't unless they put a stealth patch in. When in fact he has been like that since he released.

I tell you why I have a problem with zone option selects and you immediately try to discredit why I have a problem with it by telling me it's my opinion. In no way is pressing one input (Zone) only to get a different outcome (parry) which have one of the same inputs as parry intended. It's tech, a glitch in the system. It should not be in there. Much like unlock tech back in the day. A very low degree to what unlock tech was, but still. Low gb heavies are intended at least at the moment, even if the devs don't like it and will at some point fix them. There is also a little balance to it because at least Aramusha (I'm not sure about the others) can't cgb off a feint so he will get punished if he makes a wrong read.
So that's exactly why I don't like Zone option selects.
I do not like things that are not intended being in the game. I like playing games that have minimal bugs and glitches and I'll gladly tell my concern to anyone about them.

I appreciate your initial response by the way.

I really would like to be done with this conversation and I feel compelled to respond rather than just being an *** and moving on. So i'm going to respond to a small piece in this reply, summarize my stance, and then hopefully close this out. I apologize if my tone came off as hostile or rude in any fashion that is never my intent. I am very...passionate about this game and the community despite what my behavior might be like often.

I understand your position of disliking things that are not intended in the game. When I was a teen I was very much in the same boat. I always spoke out against halo 2's button combos back in the day purely because it was not an intended mechanic. My mindset since then has changed. I think glitches/tech/exploits can and should be allowed to exist in pvp games providing what they add to the game is healthy. (See wave dashing from the super smash brothers series.) Obviously if this were to be the route taken for any such glitch/tech/exploit it needs to be standardized and polished to be made officially apart of the game. I don't agree with your comparison between unlock tech and zones being able to parry. Unlock tech had no counter play to it what so ever. While you can make an argument that some aspects of zone OS's are not good for the game it at the very least has very easy and very accessible counter play.


As for my point, Option selecting as a whole adds some kind of depth to For honor. FH lacks mechanical depth and hero kits are largely empty. I personally don't particularly have a problem with zone option selects because counter play exists and the risk to reward ratio seems rather balanced. I do understand that this is not inherently true for all heros or in all situations. because hitbox sizes, speeds of zones, vulnerabilities, and light parry rewards (if you managed a parry with the zone) are not all equal. Hell some people can even chain off their zones. But I believe in the concept so strongly that I admittingly overlook this a bit.

I disagree about giving zones enough GB vulnerability to be guard broken in start up in a relatively consistent fashion. This is because zones are one of the very few tools that are universal for helping a person in outnumbered situations. Not to mention guard breaks are a lot stronger in what they're capable of doing. Hence why we've moved away from reactionary GB's on moves for the most part and it being a reliable option against some bash based offense. I think there is a better middle ground that could be reached.

And here is my closing segment. I would be perfectly fine with the devs fixing a zone's capability of parrying on light timing. As long as zones could still be used to beat feint into GB options on reads. I would still rather they standardized zone's to a degree in order to make option selecting with them more fair across the cast and make it an official mechanic. I'd also love it if the devs managed to find a way to add more depth to their core mechanics and actually started giving us full kits instead of niche gimmick ideas that the entire hero's viability leans on. But I don't realistically see this happening. So my next comfortable solution would be as I said, removing the parry capability but keep it's ability to stuff mix ups on reads.

[Vakris_One]

it's really hard for me to be gay on reaction so I don't know if I'll ever be able to pull one off.

[LightUpTheEyes]

Lol I was wondering if someone was gonna respond to that.