Option selects and where the fight team stands. | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

I never did try to learn them because it doesn't feel like it is intended. I figured they'd patch them out one day and if that's all I rely on like most people then I'm really going to suffer the consequences for using low skill tactics. I've always figured it was better to learn how to deal with a mix up rather than using a cure all. However it seems like everyone has come to use this tactic and it's not something I consider skillful. At least with the zone option select anyway. Sure, you can bait it out, but once your opponent sees that you're baiting it out, then more times than not it just ends up neutralising the mix up and setting both players back to neutral which is stupid. In my opinion they just need to make zone attacks vulnerable to gb on start up.

The "doesn't feel intended" idea falls short when you understand that option selecting isn't limited to zones. A very easy example I can give you is light attacking raider during his mid chain zone mix up. Lighting him beats letting the zone fly, soft feinting into GB, and soft feinting into tap if you reacted to orange fast enough. Raider can of course bait by inputting zone and feinting immediately for a parry. It creates mind games of which the game has some depth because of it.

The only option selects that are actually problems are the low GB heavy ones and charge based ones. The former because the heavy damage usually equals or does more than part of the mix up damage wise and you only get a heavy parry worth of damage if you make the correct read to bait and parry. The latter because they're extremely safe and extremely hard to punish even if you do make the correct read to bait them. Zone option selects cost half your stamina in most cases wether you are parried or not and you don't do much damage so the risk to reward ratio is fairly balanced.

option selects are bad... they basically allow you to rule out two (potential) plays by the opponent with one move

Only charged and low GB heavy ones are bad. If someone is consistently OSing you then you need to learn to bait for a parry and attempt to do something else. Spamming the same mix up is only going to get you punished regardless of whichever option you're choosing and isn't actually learning how to play with the hero.

[LightUpTheEyes]

The "doesn't feel intended" idea falls short when you understand that option selecting isn't limited to zones.

That idea doesn't fall short when you realize my original post was talking about the zone option select. In no way is that intended. I don't mind the other ones.

[Knight_Raime]

That idea doesn't fall short when you realize my original post was talking about the zone option select. In no way is that intended. I don't mind the other ones.

This does not change the validity or facts in my statement at all. Zone option selects are completely balanced. You not caring about the other ones doesn't change the fact that both low GB and charge based ones are actually broken as i've very clearly laid out for you.

If it's your opinion that you simply don't like zone option selects that's fine. You're perfectly allowed to have your own opinion.
I'm just merely informing you that they're not a balance problem and pointed to where there is a balance problem.

[Qoissant]

This does not change the validity or facts in my statement at all. Zone option selects are completely balanced. You not caring about the other ones doesn't change the fact that both low GB and charge based ones are actually broken as i've very clearly laid out for you.

If it's your opinion that you simply don't like zone option selects that's fine. You're perfectly allowed to have your own opinion.
I'm just merely informing you that they're not a balance problem and pointed to where there is a balance problem.

I personally feel like low GB HEAVY option selects have as much validity as HA on heavies [I am assuming you are talking about how armu and glad can let heavies fly for free damage when someone feints an attack to GB]. Both of low GB heavies and HA heavies ruin mixups and are equally punishable.

However if you meant more reacting to a neutral GB with a heavy on low gb attacks then I will agree that it is stupid because its unpunishable as you can't feint a GB

[LightUpTheEyes]

This does not change the validity or facts in my statement at all. Zone option selects are completely balanced. You not caring about the other ones doesn't change the fact that both low GB and charge based ones are actually broken as i've very clearly laid out for you.

If it's your opinion that you simply don't like zone option selects that's fine. You're perfectly allowed to have your own opinion.
I'm just merely informing you that they're not a balance problem and pointed to where there is a balance problem.

Low heavy gb is balanced at least from Aramusha's stand point. Because if he feints his heavy that's when he is vulnerable to gb. That's his trade off. Not sure if glad can cgb after feinting, but Aramusha certainly can not and that's what the standard for any character with low gb heavies should be.

If you throw a zone then that should be what you do. It shouldn't also count as a parry because you did not try to parry, you tried to zone. Take into account PC where you can put zone on one button and it's just highly annoying.

[Knight_Raime]

I personally feel like low GB HEAVY option selects have as much validity as HA on heavies [I am assuming you are talking about how armu and glad can let heavies fly for free damage when someone feints an attack to GB]. Both of low GB heavies and HA heavies ruin mixups and are equally punishable.

However if you meant more reacting to a neutral GB with a heavy on low gb attacks then I will agree that it is stupid because its unpunishable as you can't feint a GB

I don't see how the comparison of HA trades works with OSing. Perhaps you can elaborate further.
The issue here is risk to reward. If someone is hucking out a low GB heavy at someone attempting to mix up they're netting probably close to equal damage as said mix up but parrying said OS nets the person less damage for reading the situation correctly. Versus the person hucking the heavy making a significantly less difficult read for a better damaging reward.

Plus low GB heavies in general directly go against the buffered feint into GB thing that's meant to deal with people who overly parry via reaction parrying.

Low heavy gb is balanced at least from Aramusha's stand point. Because if he feints his heavy that's when he is vulnerable to gb. That's his trade off. Not sure if glad can cgb after feinting, but Aramusha certainly can not and that's what the standard for any character with low gb heavies should be.

If you throw a zone then that should be what you do. It shouldn't also count as a parry because you did not try to parry, you tried to zone. Take into account PC where you can put zone on one button and it's just highly annoying.

No it's not because Aramusha has 40 damage side heavies. That's busted in every sense. Musha absolutely can CGB unless they stealth nerfed his CGB recovery. OSing with a zone is easy on controller. I specifically use a controller on pc and I was option selecting with zones back when I played console. Zone's being able to parry follow the games rules. So it just sounds like something you have a distaste for rather than some actual born issue.

[LightUpTheEyes]

I don't see how the comparison of HA trades works with OSing. Perhaps you can elaborate further.
The issue here is risk to reward. If someone is hucking out a low GB heavy at someone attempting to mix up they're netting probably close to equal damage as said mix up but parrying said OS nets the person less damage for reading the situation correctly. Versus the person hucking the heavy making a significantly less difficult read for a better damaging reward.

Plus low GB heavies in general directly go against the buffered feint into GB thing that's meant to deal with people who overly parry via reaction parrying.



No it's not because Aramusha has 40 damage side heavies. That's busted in every sense. Musha absolutely can CGB unless they stealth nerfed his CGB recovery. OSing with a zone is easy on controller. I specifically use a controller on pc and I was option selecting with zones back when I played console. Zone's being able to parry follow the games rules. So it just sounds like something you have a distaste for rather than some actual born issue.

Aramusha has never been able to cgb right after feinting.

[Knight_Raime]

Aramusha has never been able to cgb right after feinting.

I have a handful of reps with the hero and that's never been a thing in my experiences. Further more there is nothing on the information hub to point to this.
So i'm more willing to bet you're simply having poor reaction times than believing that the competitive players collectively have missed out on such a thing.

But for argument sake let's assume you're correct. That shouldn't be a thing for musha or anyone else involved in feinting a basic heavy. Lower GB vulnerabilities heavies are fundamentally unhealthy for the game. Certainly when you can do things like throw a 40 damage neutral heavy like Musha. There isn't much else I can say beyond what i've already said. The risk to reward ratio is not balanced for these types of attacks.

[Qoissant]

I don't see how the comparison of HA trades works with OSing. Perhaps you can elaborate further.
The issue here is risk to reward. If someone is hucking out a low GB heavy at someone attempting to mix up they're netting probably close to equal damage as said mix up but parrying said OS nets the person less damage for reading the situation correctly. Versus the person hucking the heavy making a significantly less difficult read for a better damaging reward.

Plus low GB heavies in general directly go against the buffered feint into GB thing that's meant to deal with people who overly parry via reaction parrying.

Like if say shaman throws a heavy and feints to GB. Armu can just send a heavy out and shamans GB will fail and guarantee the damage from armu. If armu feints the heavy then he is guaranteed to get gaurdbroken and be punished.

So the shaman can punish with a parry or dodge heavy depending on the armus behaviour. or even use her mixup as intended. But best case scenario is that armu is getting heavy damage.

Same thing here happens with jorm and shaman. Jorm can be more easily caught in the heavy soft feint unless he parried super early where his GB frames already passed before GB soft feint so he could also get a free heavy.

But for the aramusha if shaman does say the heavy soft feint to bleed then letting a heavy fly will guarantee that shaman lands an attack for no trade putting her down for the win. But jorm will HA through the attack causing a trade where shaman loses more health than the jorm.

I think about it like this. You know what characters have low GB heavies so if you see them abuse it you can punish them just the same as people who overuse HA to escape mixups

Edit: of course there are basically no other hero’s on the roster with a soft feint mixup as solid as shaman so it doesn’t necessarily mean that this is a great justification

[Qoissant]

I have a handful of reps with the hero and that's never been a thing in my experiences. Further more there is nothing on the information hub to point to this.
So i'm more willing to bet you're simply having poor reaction times than believing that the competitive players collectively have missed out on such a thing.

But for argument sake let's assume you're correct. That shouldn't be a thing for musha or anyone else involved in feinting a basic heavy. Lower GB vulnerabilities heavies are fundamentally unhealthy for the game. Certainly when you can do things like throw a 40 damage neutral heavy like Musha. There isn't much else I can say beyond what i've already said. The risk to reward ratio is not balanced for these types of attacks.

If mushmush were to lose his low GB heavy I would hope that it doesn’t happen unless he sees a rework or hefty buff. As he is now I feel he would be the worst hero in the game if he lost that. It’s one of the only ways he can ‘open’ an enemy.