Real Balance To FH | Forums

[Hormly]

FH is broken at its core and will therefore never be balanced, I'd say at this late stage of the game you should either accept it for what it is or move on to a new game

[UbiInsulin]

Bump for some kind of answer.

When will unilateral characteristics be applied across classes? 500ms lights for heavy chars, hyper armor timing thats consistently viable [JJ, Warlord barely get it yet Shugo its instant light HA].

Recovery time updates for ALL assassins?!

I miss having actual classes of characters in this game.

Glad and Shinobi's reflex guards just became standardized. "Escape" was just standardized. Recovery time updates have been a pretty consistent thing recently, but not focused around one particular type of hero AFAIK.

I don't have a "when" on 500ms lights for every heavy character. It is a general direction that we've been going with our changes, and we acknowledge that 500 is a pretty good baseline, but typically we look at attack speed changes as part of an overall change to a hero (because it affects that hero's overall balance and viability), not as a "standardization."

If you change attack speed, you also have to look at attack damage, for example.

[UbiInsulin]

I'd say that's about right pretty moronic of them to do
UbiInsulin why don't you tell the devs that the communtity
thinks the shinobi "rework" only nerfing him was a stupid
decision and they shoulda gave him a buff to compensate
more health (optional) and more close quarters combos (mandatory!!!)

We wouldn't have called the Shinobi changes a rework. It was intended to make it easier to punish him, as we said on the stream about the changes.

We have made sure to pass on the feedback that he could use more substantial changes (generally I see people mention that his damage is overtuned, but he lacks a true "offense").

[We.the.North]

We wouldn't have called the Shinobi changes a rework. It was intended to make it easier to punish him, as we said on the stream about the changes.

We have made sure to pass on the feedback that he could use more substantial changes (generally I see people mention that his damage is overtuned, but he lacks a true "offense").

Only 2 Shinobi moves are falsely considered "overtuned" : the double light and the heavy+light ... but ...

The double light doesn't chain into anything else. When you compare damage values, you have to consider also the fact some characters, after a light for instance, can keep chaining into something else. Thus, you have to add the "average values" of those chains (ex : heavy or feint heavy into GB for heavy ; does 30 damage successful 20% of the time or does 6 damage on block, thus I need to add +6 damage on average to my light because I chain into something else). All the "average chain damage" needs to be added until the momentum goes back to the opponent. Doing this, you realise the Shinobi double light is not overturned at all. If anything, it's black prior light bash light that is overtuned.

As for the heavy + light . From neutral, the heavy is 1100 ms and thus, unusable. It's not even feintable since it's that long. The only way to land it is after a guardbreak and at high level, people rarely fall pray to guardbreaks.

Last, you have to account for Shinobi low hp. A character doing 30 damage to a 150 hp heavy and a character doing only 20 damage to a 100 hp hero ... guess what, both did 20% damage despite one doing +50% damage. Shinobi having the lowest health pool in the game gives him the right to have slighly above damage values on his moves even when compared to identical speed moves ... and again, dont forget shinobi "overuned moves" DO NOT CHAIN into anything else. Damage stops there.

So tell me again Shinobi damage is overtuned, I'll name you at least 10 other heroes with better mix up doing way more damage to their target on average with their mix up and chains.

So sick of forum complainers tunnel vision. Balancing needs to be looked at by looking at the bigger picture and Shinobi damage is currently NOT overtunned considering the big picture.

[Vendelkin]

Only 2 Shinobi moves are falsely considered "overtuned" : the double light and the heavy+light ... but ...

The double light doesn't chain into anything else. When you compare damage values, you have to consider also the fact some characters, after a light for instance, can keep chaining into something else. Thus, you have to add the "average values" of those chains (ex : heavy or feint heavy into GB for heavy ; does 30 damage successful 20% of the time or does 6 damage on block, thus I need to add +6 damage on average to my light because I chain into something else). All the "average chain damage" needs to be added until the momentum goes back to the opponent. Doing this, you realise the Shinobi double light is not overturned at all. If anything, it's black prior light bash light that is overtuned.

As for the heavy + light . From neutral, the heavy is 1100 ms and thus, unusable. It's not even feintable since it's that long. The only way to land it is after a guardbreak and at high level, people rarely fall pray to guardbreaks.

Last, you have to account for Shinobi low hp. A character doing 30 damage to a 150 hp heavy and a character doing only 20 damage to a 100 hp hero ... guess what, both did 20% damage despite one doing +50% damage. Shinobi having the lowest health pool in the game gives him the right to have slighly above damage values on his moves even when compared to identical speed moves ... and again, dont forget shinobi "overuned moves" DO NOT CHAIN into anything else. Damage stops there.

So tell me again Shinobi damage is overtuned, I'll name you at least 10 other heroes with better mix up doing way more damage to their target on average with their mix up and chains.

So sick of forum complainers tunnel vision. Balancing needs to be looked at by looking at the bigger picture and Shinobi damage is currently NOT overtunned considering the big picture.

This^^

[AC35S4S51N]

Yea make it easier to punish.. the guy can get killed in 2 to 3 hits.. morons.

[CRIMS0NM0NKEY]

You should factor in that shinobi in 4v4s isn't missed. And that he naruto runs away from any fight if he gets a little scrape to go get health. You should also factor is he stands behind his teammates using them as human shields while he fights in team fights until his teammate dies then shinobi naruto runs away. You should also factor in he has two gbs while all other heros only have one of these fundamental mechanics.
I agree shinobi is in a bad spot right now. I don't play shinobi...obviously but I don't think he's overtuned at all. I would leave him as he is now but get rid of his range gb then give him 200 health and increase his stamina consumption in his zone just so it isn't abused. I'd also increase the damage on his deflects greatly...like Highlander heavy damage.
The purpose of the hero would be to tank damage and collect deflects. So he wouldn't be an assassin but a hybrid.
I'd also increase the size of the hero slightly to represent his new class...slightly larger than orochi.
His feats would have to change to something like vortiger where he is a supporting class in his feats. Vortiger heal on bulwark would be changed to rocksteady for the new shinobi.
Shinobi would still have his reflex guard as this hybrid to balance out his health but he'd still have his naruto run....hed regularly run at heavy speed.
He's also able to deflect unblockables as his special feature.

[MrGrippz]

Glad and Shinobi's reflex guards just became standardized. "Escape" was just standardized. Recovery time updates have been a pretty consistent thing recently, but not focused around one particular type of hero AFAIK.

I don't have a "when" on 500ms lights for every heavy character. It is a general direction that we've been going with our changes, and we acknowledge that 500 is a pretty good baseline, but typically we look at attack speed changes as part of an overall change to a hero (because it affects that hero's overall balance and viability), not as a "standardization."

If you change attack speed, you also have to look at attack damage, for example.

I mean what you are saying makes sense. I think 500ms lights are feasible however the merger of characteristics is still not pleasing. Like assassins dodges should be buffed since thats their best viable defense with a non-static guard. Heavy char lights should do more dmg than assassins. I feel the game would improve if the buffs & nerfs were more focused on char classes again.

Really like the updates for Glad & Warlord as well as PK, Highlander & Nobushi. I dont play the latter 3 but they are much more deadly now. We as a community just want all chars to be good so we have options to choose without thinking we picked an underpowered char against a buffed out new char, ya know?

I do feel these last couple patches [2 since this thread was posted i think] have helped & are steps in the right direction.

[MrGrippz]

They can’t.

The dodge have the same timing the only one with faster dodges then normal is offensive stance highlander with 400ms dodges.

You may be right but i guarantee the recovery timing between animations aint the same.

[Sweaty_Sock]

Only 2 Shinobi moves are falsely considered "overtuned" : the double light and the heavy+light ... but ...

Its the pin, it will half health another assassin. Needs to lose the pin, gain another option, and make the ranged attacks less risky (suggestion before on those is just reward a flat damage on counter and do away with the fall over mechanic (to vulnerable to some characters, useess to others)