1. #1

    State of the current game

    When Ubi announced and demonstrated For Honor, I was pumped. Finally here is a fighting game that isnít 2D or a side scroller. They made something unique, but I fear itís not gonna last due to all the pampering this game does for low skill players.

    Before Marching fire update, people actually needed some skill to play and couldnít just keep spamming one thing over and over.

    Now the gameís just a gank fest by meeting the demands of low skill players that donít want to put time into learning the game. A viable strategy now is to just run with at least 3 ppl and start beating on loners since revenge doesnít fill up as quick anymore.

    Even worse are the characters with hyperarmor. You put some time into learning some great moves on your character, but when youíre up against someone playing a character like raider, hitokiri or shugoki, it doesnít matter. Theyíre just gonna cut through you anyways with spamming.

    Itís just a disappointment now and I think as soon as a similar game comes out from a different publisher, a lot of people are gonna migrate over and leave this behind them.

    You might be skeptical about that last bit, but ask yourself why Ubi is handing out this game for free which they never do with their other titles. Theyíre running out of numbers.
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  2. #2
    HI

    My opinions: "low skill" players or rather casual players like myself has the right to enjoy them selfs too, we spend money on the game too

    On the ganking part you feel is unfair? yet feel its fair for a skilled player to 1-1 a newbie? honestly if you dont want to be ganked then dont run team based missions, the hole idea of dominion and breach ect is to work as a team, no?

    Not every one can be skilled, and honestly if the high skilled players like your self were that good, they can parry, dodge and reflect most spams.

    For us that with th slow reflexes for the parries and stuff... spam on brothers!! (the high skill guys will learn how to parry and reflect)
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  3. #3
    "Before Marching fire update, people actually needed some skill to play and couldn’t just keep spamming one thing over and over."

    Please inform me what was skillful about stacking gear and buffs/debuffs to allow kits like Orochi to deal 72 damage in a single strike. Please tell me how it was skillful to have revenge gear that let you have revenge for an excessive amount of times in the match where you could barely harm the revenge shield. Please tell me how it was skillful for pk to be able to delete you in 3-4 hits or how revenge bashes floored people regardless of the person's OOS state. Please tell me what was skillful about spamming gank tools that could not be interrupted that could lead to someone's death. I can go on.


    "A viable strategy now is to just run with at least 3 ppl and start beating on loners since revenge doesn’t fill up as quick anymore."

    When revenge was reworked they removed revenge gain from a 1v1 situation but increased the revenge gained from every other fight scenario. When they made this change revenge became bugged some how. Causing situations where someone would not gain revenge at all or gain very little revenge. This last patch was the second attempt to fix revenge earn related bugs. Considering they changed revenge quite awhile ago it's VERY likely that you're experiencing the bug because it is fairly common and mistaking it for an intended situation when it was more likely a bugged one.

    Also, If you're constantly finding yourself alone you're either poorly positioning yourself around the map or your team is constantly dying. If the enemy team decides to roam around in a pack of 3 or more this is called death balling. Death balling has always been a widely used and viable tactic in dominion since the games launch. This happens because players do not have good game sense in casual MM que. Death balling can absolutely be played around if you and your team know how to do rotations, how to peel, and learn when to join a fight/commit to one or leave. What you are describing isn't anything new nor was enabled in anyway overtime to be more effective.



    "Even worse are the characters with hyperarmor. You put some time into learning some great moves on your character, but when you’re up against someone playing a character like raider, hitokiri or shugoki, it doesn’t matter. They’re just gonna cut through you anyways with spamming."

    Not entirely true. Chained hyper armor is not something that can be spammed as a catch all. It is more often than not a read to properly trade with most attacks. However, There is some problematic armor in the game. This would be shugoki's opening light, hitokiri's opening heavy, and both hero's charged heavy armor as both hero's armor activates the moment they commit to the heavy. Those character's armor need to be adjusted. But hyper armor in general is not wholistically a problem. it entirely depends on how it's implemented and the timings of it. It's pretty universally agreed both from a casual perspective and from the competitive one that the heros i've named need to have their armor adjusted. And the devs themselves have openly stated to be changing hito's armor numbers (both her opening heavy and her charged one) at some point. So that sets precident for goki's to be effected as well.


    "They’re running out of numbers."

    Factually false and i've provided numbers in the prior thread about these same topics. Said source also explains how to do the same test he did as it's not very complicated. So if you wanted to check your own platform's numbers you easily could. Bluntly put the game manages to pull a few 100k players during event times. Which would imply that there is still a healthy amount of active accounts for the game. The more likely reason for them giving the game out so frequently lately is because they can afford to. I remember reading a report sometime early this year or maybe last year about ubi's financial report. Showing FH still making a fair amount of money. Which makes sense with how much the devs are capable of putting out cosmetics and heros that people want to buy. They probably make a good earning off of steel packs alone.

    If you were to point to recent times with longer MM ques It's because the devs messed up the MM algorithim with this season's launch patch. Season 10's MM was actually fairly decent across the board. From memory usually anytime i've noticed an actual increase in search times has been during times where the devs have either reset the MM paramiters or they were changing them. Before that I can only recall terrible search times pre dedicated servers. And I know it's not just my experience. As both the handful of people I watch on twitch or YT and my group of friends have similar experiences to mine despite all of us coming from different parts of the world. The only exception to this being the YT person known as "flux deluxe" where he has to use oceanic servers.
    And he only recently in the past few months started talking about really long search times. I've heard rumblings about Australia players struggling as well. But from what I know their infestructure for online stuff has always been rather poor. So it's hard to say.



    I will say that there is a current worry about the latest state of the game for me though. But that's entirely because the mid season patch introduced a lot of bugs and inconsistencies compared to the season launch patch. And it's a bit troublesome that the devs haven't done anything to acknowledge any of this even during the Den this week.
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  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    "Before Marching fire update, people actually needed some skill to play and couldn’t just keep spamming one thing over and over."

    Please inform me what was skillful about stacking gear and buffs/debuffs to allow kits like Orochi to deal 72 damage in a single strike. Please tell me how it was skillful to have revenge gear that let you have revenge for an excessive amount of times in the match where you could barely harm the revenge shield. Please tell me how it was skillful for pk to be able to delete you in 3-4 hits or how revenge bashes floored people regardless of the person's OOS state. Please tell me what was skillful about spamming gank tools that could not be interrupted that could lead to someone's death. I can go on.


    "A viable strategy now is to just run with at least 3 ppl and start beating on loners since revenge doesn’t fill up as quick anymore."

    When revenge was reworked they removed revenge gain from a 1v1 situation but increased the revenge gained from every other fight scenario. When they made this change revenge became bugged some how. Causing situations where someone would not gain revenge at all or gain very little revenge. This last patch was the second attempt to fix revenge earn related bugs. Considering they changed revenge quite awhile ago it's VERY likely that you're experiencing the bug because it is fairly common and mistaking it for an intended situation when it was more likely a bugged one.

    Also, If you're constantly finding yourself alone you're either poorly positioning yourself around the map or your team is constantly dying. If the enemy team decides to roam around in a pack of 3 or more this is called death balling. Death balling has always been a widely used and viable tactic in dominion since the games launch. This happens because players do not have good game sense in casual MM que. Death balling can absolutely be played around if you and your team know how to do rotations, how to peel, and learn when to join a fight/commit to one or leave. What you are describing isn't anything new nor was enabled in anyway overtime to be more effective.



    "Even worse are the characters with hyperarmor. You put some time into learning some great moves on your character, but when you’re up against someone playing a character like raider, hitokiri or shugoki, it doesn’t matter. They’re just gonna cut through you anyways with spamming."

    Not entirely true. Chained hyper armor is not something that can be spammed as a catch all. It is more often than not a read to properly trade with most attacks. However, There is some problematic armor in the game. This would be shugoki's opening light, hitokiri's opening heavy, and both hero's charged heavy armor as both hero's armor activates the moment they commit to the heavy. Those character's armor need to be adjusted. But hyper armor in general is not wholistically a problem. it entirely depends on how it's implemented and the timings of it. It's pretty universally agreed both from a casual perspective and from the competitive one that the heros i've named need to have their armor adjusted. And the devs themselves have openly stated to be changing hito's armor numbers (both her opening heavy and her charged one) at some point. So that sets precident for goki's to be effected as well.


    "They’re running out of numbers."

    Factually false and i've provided numbers in the prior thread about these same topics. Said source also explains how to do the same test he did as it's not very complicated. So if you wanted to check your own platform's numbers you easily could. Bluntly put the game manages to pull a few 100k players during event times. Which would imply that there is still a healthy amount of active accounts for the game. The more likely reason for them giving the game out so frequently lately is because they can afford to. I remember reading a report sometime early this year or maybe last year about ubi's financial report. Showing FH still making a fair amount of money. Which makes sense with how much the devs are capable of putting out cosmetics and heros that people want to buy. They probably make a good earning off of steel packs alone.

    If you were to point to recent times with longer MM ques It's because the devs messed up the MM algorithim with this season's launch patch. Season 10's MM was actually fairly decent across the board. From memory usually anytime i've noticed an actual increase in search times has been during times where the devs have either reset the MM paramiters or they were changing them. Before that I can only recall terrible search times pre dedicated servers. And I know it's not just my experience. As both the handful of people I watch on twitch or YT and my group of friends have similar experiences to mine despite all of us coming from different parts of the world. The only exception to this being the YT person known as "flux deluxe" where he has to use oceanic servers.
    And he only recently in the past few months started talking about really long search times. I've heard rumblings about Australia players struggling as well. But from what I know their infestructure for online stuff has always been rather poor. So it's hard to say.



    I will say that there is a current worry about the latest state of the game for me though. But that's entirely because the mid season patch introduced a lot of bugs and inconsistencies compared to the season launch patch. And it's a bit troublesome that the devs haven't done anything to acknowledge any of this even during the Den this week.
    what in the name of god are you on about??
    I don't think op wants some random guy to speak on behalf of the devs. Plus half the things you say ain't true.
    there are people still out there who preferred FH when it had a moderate learning curve and everything wasn't ez mode.
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  5. #5
    Originally Posted by Real_Doll Go to original post
    what in the name of god are you on about??
    I don't think op wants some random guy to speak on behalf of the devs. Plus half the things you say ain't true.
    there are people still out there who preferred FH when it had a moderate learning curve and everything wasn't ez mode.
    completely agree. I know Developers want to make For Honor a game for casuals as well so the game won't die out, but lights and hyper armor is not the way to go. Giving players the options to spam lights and have uninterruptable attacks nullifies the struggle of us, the players who put time in this game to understand it. I still think For Honor is an awesome game, but balancing is too slow and that makes many players quit
    Others quit simply because some characters are so annoying that everyone plays them. Example: Lawbringer - Highest health pool in the game, 400 ms lights, highest parry punishes in the game, annoying blinds can be followed by lights and unblockables . Or Raider - Highest DPS potential in the game, annoying 400 ms blind, Soft feints into GB that can ledge you from across the planet.

    Why are some characters only using lights as their main damage potential? Because Ubisoft thinks lights will solve everything. Make lights not chain or make them possible only at the start of the combo. One light per combo is enough. Boom, healthy game
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  6. #6
    Originally Posted by Real_Doll Go to original post
    what in the name of god are you on about??
    I don't think op wants some random guy to speak on behalf of the devs. Plus half the things you say ain't true.
    there are people still out there who preferred FH when it had a moderate learning curve and everything wasn't ez mode.
    "what in the name of god are you on about??"

    If there is something specific that is confusing you about my reply to the OP a more specific question would help me answer your confusion.


    "I don't think op wants some random guy to speak on behalf of the devs."

    I'm not quite sure where you got me speaking for the developers in my response. Unless you're referring to them stating they would adjust hitokiri's armor. because they did in fact state that on a Den.


    "Plus half the things you say ain't true."

    Please elaborate on what things I said that are not true with a detailed response. Explaining how a statement I made was wrong would also help further the discussion.


    "there are people still out there who preferred FH when it had a moderate learning curve and everything wasn't ez mode."

    I'm not exactly sure what "learning curve" you speak of. The game and every hero it's ever had has always been of fairly low mechanical depth. The only sort of learning curve i've ever been aware of has been involved with 4's modes specifically game sense. (which I detailed a little bit in one of my responses.) So if you could further elaborate on this i'd much appreciate it.
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  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    "what in the name of god are you on about??"

    If there is something specific that is confusing you about my reply to the OP a more specific question would help me answer your confusion.


    "I don't think op wants some random guy to speak on behalf of the devs."

    I'm not quite sure where you got me speaking for the developers in my response. Unless you're referring to them stating they would adjust hitokiri's armor. because they did in fact state that on a Den.


    "Plus half the things you say ain't true."

    Please elaborate on what things I said that are not true with a detailed response. Explaining how a statement I made was wrong would also help further the discussion.


    "there are people still out there who preferred FH when it had a moderate learning curve and everything wasn't ez mode."

    I'm not exactly sure what "learning curve" you speak of. The game and every hero it's ever had has always been of fairly low mechanical depth. The only sort of learning curve i've ever been aware of has been involved with 4's modes specifically game sense. (which I detailed a little bit in one of my responses.) So if you could further elaborate on this i'd much appreciate it.
    there was a learning curve before. you couldn't just press light to win. There were mix ups and mind games, though now they are interrupted by lights that do a huge amount of damage for how cheap they are. Seriously, why would Shaolin do on a light as much damage as Centurion on a heavy, I know it's changed but still

    Wu Lin are just a new name for Light Spam, at least for players that refuse to learn the game. Guess what, light spam is winning like crazy, so is bash spam. This is where the learning curve comes in. If you're gonna give people the option of being dumb, they will be dumb because it's easier
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  8. #8
    Originally Posted by TOCKSYK Go to original post
    there was a learning curve before. you couldn't just press light to win. There were mix ups and mind games, though now they are interrupted by lights that do a huge amount of damage for how cheap they are. Seriously, why would Shaolin do on a light as much damage as Centurion on a heavy, I know it's changed but still

    Wu Lin are just a new name for Light Spam, at least for players that refuse to learn the game. Guess what, light spam is winning like crazy, so is bash spam. This is where the learning curve comes in. If you're gonna give people the option of being dumb, they will be dumb because it's easier
    "why would Shaolin do on a light as much damage as Centurion on a heavy, I know it's changed but still"

    So you're telling me there was something wrong with being hit by 3 lights that ended his chain being 1 damage less than a lower damage heavy that chained?


    "Light Spam, bash spam."

    Both of these things have existed since the Launch of the game and at least the former has been addressed by the devs stating that their own data shows that light spamming becomes far less of a viable winning tool the higher up in skill brackets you go.

    "If you're gonna give people the option of being dumb, they will be dumb because it's easier."

    True. But adding in more heros that can played in an "easier" fashion doesn't further lower the skill ceiling. You can have the entry level of a game be very easy to get in and still have a high ceiling. For honor's very design as i've mentioned already has basically no mechanical depth. There isn't anything that's insanely difficult to do input wise either with heros or with the mechanics of the game itself. The entire "skill" of for honor is game sense. That's where the depth of for honor is and always has been. Anything else basically amounts to having good reflexes as for honor even to this day is still primarily reaction based.


    "Wu Lin are just a new name for Light Spam."

    I disagree with this but rather than defending the wu-lin i'm going to tackle the other part of it which implies that the base game wasn't full of "cheap/easily spammable and effective moves."

    Warden's zone was his second tool to be spammed back in the day next to his "vortex" bash. Peacekeeper was spam central with her light light feint into light light and zone feint. Conq had his forward bash and his infinite bash heavy bash. Warlord had his unreactable throw spam that carried you across entire fields and a headbutt that was nearly unpunishable. He also could reactionarily use his full block and be safe the entire time because he could leave and recover from doing so quickly and could CGB in it. Valks light light spam into sweep was so "effective" that it got her but nerfed into the ground fairly early on.
    Orochi like pk was basically considered a spam hero with his lights and zone. Kensei was plagued with constant complaints about his dodge heavy spam and zone spam. Shugoki's would simply tank a hit with their passive refreshable super armor to earn free guard breaks and one shot you with a guaranteed demon's embrace when critical.

    We also can't forget these issues existed back when gear sets existed and revenge was as busted as it was as both enabled you to do stupid things. A revenge set with pk allowed her to blender people with her zone and do insane amounts of damage whilst barely taking any shield damage. You could stack a damage set with attack buffs and debuffs with Orochi to do 72 damage with a light. You could take a revenge set on a hero who has an easy access bash like Warlord and knock people over constantly because revenge bashes floored anyone they touched regardless of your stamina.

    The OG roster was far from safe when it comes to criticism about easily abusable things. And people largely forget just how busted the base game used to be. The game never really was in anyway shape or form in a decent state until season 5 dropped. And even then the devs still had to work hard to remove things like unlock tech to improve the game as a whole.
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  9. #9
    Raime is right in that the broken elements have always been there & (despite a few glaring failures) the direction is moving away from utterly broken moves to more of a 'use the whole kit'.

    That said TOCKSYK is also correct in that the the skill ceiling is falling... but also wrong because it is also rising.....

    This is the playerbase schism that is ripping through the game. Basically the game used to consist of many skills to learn, such as timing, distance, dodge mechanics etc. Most of these have been stripped away and moved into characters kits, the wu lin are a prime example in terms of auto spacing, and dodges that encompas what used to take player specific timing & skill. Attacks also are becoming easier to input and use, with alot of HA, tracking & undodgables etc. filling the game (as well as softfeint mixups, unreactable mixups and the like).

    The reality is however that the more variables in the game the harder it is to balance, so you can kinda see why they have had to be toned down. The flip side is that reaction is now the king skill by a large margin, as essentially parrying lights will stop almost all offense.

    Basically many skills have been heavily reduced, while a particular skill has become pivotal to playing at any decent level.
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  10. #10
    The only Light Spammer in Wu lin is Nuxia rest arent even light spammers lol
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