1. #1

    Offensive Gameplay Ideas

    Reduce Lawbringer's light parry punish, delay both Shugoki's HA on light and Hitokiri's HA on heavy so they wont be able to trade on reaction. Nerf Raider's damage so he wont be able to deal 40 damage out of a light parry punish. Delay HA on his heavy chain so it can be interrupted. Make Conq and BP's bash more punishable, i take it its even harder to fight them on console since they made the bashes faster?
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  2. #2
    So by offensive game play ideas you mean for the opponent while taking away these heros offensive openers....causing them to Turtle.
    Raider needs a damage nerf
    Lawbringer needs a health nerf
    Hito needs his second light or heavy to not have HA on it unless it's charged.
    Shugoki needs a health reduction again on his hug...15?
    I've been playing with bp and he's fine. He's better than most assasins, worse than HA heros, and almost as good as reworked heros like Lawbringer and raider.
    I main shugoki. My BP is Rep 40 now.
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  3. #3
    Vakris_One's Avatar Senior Member
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    So your idea of offensive gameplay is to remove what little ability most of these heroes have to enter their mixups and chains and call it a day. That's a no from me. When I think of more/better offense I expect something more along these lines:

    Lawbringer - Needs a stamina buff so he can actually utilise his mixups without putting himself OOS. He will also need a reliable opener from neutral that actually forces a reaction because a 400ms light from one direction isn't it. His light parry could be toned down if he gets just the stamina buff but until he actually has a viable offence from neutral there's really nothing to discuss about wholesale nerfing his parry punishes or health pool.

    Shugoki - his hyper armour on a neutral light should be reduced by 100ms but he will have even less offensive capability than he does now and he will be forced to turtle more as a result. If you want to encourage a hero to attack you need to give them the tools to do so. Shugo is going to need things like a dash forward headbutt that guarrantees a light attack like Warlord, better tracking for his hard feint into GB so he can catch back dodges, his in-chain headbutt needs to be made 100ms faster and hard feintable.

    Conq - Needs his many option selects toned down and nerfed then compensated for this with a viable mid-chain offence. His in-chain mixups need to have pressure if you want them to have a reason to exist at higher levels. There's no reason why he shouldn't be able to hard feint without having to use his full block. His heavy soft feint into bash should be made 100ms faster and an undogeable heavy finisher would be a nice addition to encourage some more offensive mixups. His infinite light chain should be reduced in damage to 15 as a rebalance for the increase to his mid-chain pressure.

    BP - Needs a chase tool. Would be good if he could have an extra 100ms input window on his chain finisher light attack which would allow him to delay his second light attack like the majority of the cast. Making his shield bash more punishable would only encourage him to turtle more unless you redesign his kits so that he doesn't revolve around shield bash for his offence. The same can be said for Conq.

    Hitokiri - Reduce her hyper armour startup from neutral by 100ms. Allow her to go into her chains after a zone attack. Make her dash forward heavy faster by 100ms. Switch her kick and sweep punishes around so that she gets a light from a kick and a heavy from a sweep. This should help to balance out the risk/reward factor for the opponent going up against her read-based kick/sweep mixup.

    Raider - Reduce the damage from his top heavy finishers and zone by 5. Reduce his second side heavy damage by 5. Make his second and third top lights 500ms and 15 damage. Stunning tap's blind effect should have diminishing returns so that he cannot keep the opponent's screen in constant whiteout with reapplication of stun tap. Buff his stamina so that he can use his true opener and/or his mixups more often without risking going near OOS just from a single offensive play.
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  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Vakris_One Go to original post
    So your idea of offensive gameplay is to remove what little ability most of these heroes have to enter their mixups and chains and call it a day. That's a no from me. When I think of more/better offense I expect something more along these lines:

    Lawbringer - Needs a stamina buff so he can actually utilise his mixups without putting himself OOS. He will also need a reliable opener from neutral that actually forces a reaction because a 400ms light from one direction isn't it. His light parry could be toned down if he gets just the stamina buff but until he actually has a viable offence from neutral there's really nothing to discuss about wholesale nerfing his parry punishes or health pool.

    Shugoki - his hyper armour on a neutral light should be reduced by 100ms but he will have even less offensive capability than he does now and he will be forced to turtle more as a result. If you want to encourage a hero to attack you need to give them the tools to do so. Shugo is going to need things like a dash forward headbutt that guarrantees a light attack like Warlord, better tracking for his hard feint into GB so he can catch back dodges, his in-chain headbutt needs to be made 100ms faster and hard feintable.

    Conq - Needs his many option selects toned down and nerfed then compensated for this with a viable mid-chain offence. His in-chain mixups need to have pressure if you want them to have a reason to exist at higher levels. There's no reason why he shouldn't be able to hard feint without having to use his full block. His heavy soft feint into bash should be made 100ms faster and an undogeable heavy finisher would be a nice addition to encourage some more offensive mixups. His infinite light chain should be reduced in damage to 15 as a rebalance for the increase to his mid-chain pressure.

    BP - Needs a chase tool. Would be good if he could have an extra 100ms input window on his chain finisher light attack which would allow him to delay his second light attack like the majority of the cast. Making his shield bash more punishable would only encourage him to turtle more unless you redesign his kits so that he doesn't revolve around shield bash for his offence. The same can be said for Conq.

    Hitokiri - Reduce her hyper armour startup from neutral by 100ms. Allow her to go into her chains after a zone attack. Make her dash forward heavy faster by 100ms. Switch her kick and sweep punishes around so that she gets a light from a kick and a heavy from a sweep. This should help to balance out the risk/reward factor for the opponent going up against her read-based kick/sweep mixup.

    Raider - Reduce the damage from his top heavy finishers and zone by 5. Reduce his second side heavy damage by 5. Make his second and third top lights 500ms and 15 damage. Stunning tap's blind effect should have diminishing returns so that he cannot keep the opponent's screen in constant whiteout with reapplication of stun tap. Buff his stamina so that he can use his true opener and/or his mixups more often without risking going near OOS just from a single offensive play.
    I like them all but i know you all will think Im defending Hitokiri but switching his kick sweep punishes would make him stronger. At least thats how I see it. i always found the kick easier to dodge compared to sweep. Not to mention whenever I used the kick or sweep people nearly all the time dodge the kick and fall for the sweep. But then again thats my experience. Doing something like that would only help ppl like me that main her so I dont think its a bad idea if you wanna make her less powerful, but thats just me anyway
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  5. #5
    Vakris_One's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by AmonDarkGod Go to original post
    I like them all but i know you all will think Im defending Hitokiri but switching his kick sweep punishes would make him stronger. At least thats how I see it. i always found the kick easier to dodge compared to sweep. Not to mention whenever I used the kick or sweep people nearly all the time dodge the kick and fall for the sweep. But then again thats my experience.
    The kick/sweep mind game would still remain a largely read based affair. I just feel it would be in a healthier state if her uncharged bash didn't deal 30 damage. This is for two reasons:

    1) Her uncharged kick is 500ms and thus can be guarranteed if the opponent switched guard just before blocking or getting hit by her attack. The same way a BP or Jormungandr chain bash can be guarranteed by a last minute guard switch. At higher levels players already know not to switch their guard so late against such heroes so this change is primarily aimed at making Hito fairer at lower levels while also not punishing a mistake with 30 damage.

    2) Her sweep is barely used at the competitive level because the pay off is worse than the kick while risking more GB/bash vulnerablity - especially from external sources in team fights. This would encourage a healthier distribution of risk/reward for the kick and the sweep. Seeing as how the sweep is riskier it should be the one that nets more reward, whereas the kick has less risk to it and therefore should net the smaller reward.

    As a bonus it would also clean up the janky looking animation of Hito just sitting there doing nothing directly after a successful sweep simply because an artifial delay exists between the sweep and the light. By making the follow up a heavy the artificial delay would no longer need to exist because the heavy is already slower than a light so the timing for the confirmed punish would gel together more seamlessly.
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  6. #6
    Originally Posted by Vakris_One Go to original post
    The kick/sweep mind game would still remain a largely read based affair. I just feel it would be in a healthier state if her uncharged bash didn't deal 30 damage. This is for two reasons:

    1) Her uncharged kick is 500ms and thus can be guarranteed if the opponent switched guard just before blocking or getting hit by her attack. The same way a BP or Jormungandr chain bash can be guarranteed by a last minute guard switch. At higher levels players already know not to switch their guard so late against such heroes so this change is primarily aimed at making Hito fairer at lower levels while also not punishing a mistake with 30 damage.

    2) Her sweep is barely used at the competitive level because the pay off is worse than the kick while risking more GB/bash vulnerablity - especially from external sources in team fights. This would encourage a healthier distribution of risk/reward for the kick and the sweep. Seeing as how the sweep is riskier it should be the one that nets more reward, whereas the kick has less risk to it and therefore should net the smaller reward.

    As a bonus it would also clean up the janky looking animation of Hito just sitting there doing nothing directly after a successful sweep simply because an artifial delay exists between the sweep and the light. By making the follow up a heavy the artificial delay would no longer need to exist because the heavy is already slower than a light so the timing for the confirmed punish would gel together more seamlessly.
    Fair point maybe devs make the kick from neutral and gives a light without HA and give sweep to heavy? Now that would be interesting lol. Also delay the HA on the heavies
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  7. #7
    Someone made a good post about chaining Shugoki's HA to the opponents attack type which would Nerf him enough. I don't remember it exactly but is had to do with some sort of reduction in HA.
    It was a pretty balanced Nerf.

    I don't think reducing shugs HA on his light is a good idea as it would just be another Turtle feast. He'd be worse off than old shugoki.
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  8. #8
    honestly tho we'd be better without HA maybe buff the heroes
    who can't live without HA by giving variety in their moveset to compensate
    the change to not having HA for it only Instills the turtle meta which
    the devs don't realize so devs I beseech you take away hyperarmor so
    people can finish their combos without being afraid of getting slapped in the face and
    taking over 30 to 50 damage just saying this would make people less cautious and won't
    cause them to put on their shellcaps it would make fighting more fun for everyone
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  9. #9
    I always thought lawbringer needs something done with the longarm. From the tutorial video, it is clear it was intended to be useful in 1v1, which is clearly not the case, it is only used for trolling, out of desperation or just outright giving up. It should be threatening some way, after that, a damage nerf would be justified.
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  10. #10
    Originally Posted by CRIMS0NM0NKEY Go to original post
    Someone made a good post about chaining Shugoki's HA to the opponents attack type which would Nerf him enough. I don't remember it exactly but is had to do with some sort of reduction in HA.
    It was a pretty balanced Nerf.

    I don't think reducing shugs HA on his light is a good idea as it would just be another Turtle feast. He'd be worse off than old shugoki.
    Old suggestion was for some HA for stopping lights and some HA for stopping both lights/heavies (i..e WL for example would get through all attacks, whereas shugo lightsHA would be effective only against lights so he'd be staggered by a heavy) - other was that its one HA per chain for some of the characters, so if hito for example ate a hit going in then for the remainder of that chain they are open to being hit out of what they doing.

    Either I think are too hard to put into the game at this point, so the best option is just nerf sugos HA on lights and turn the parry punish for those lights into the same as you would get from a heavy (in effect making it a safer move to use aggressively)

    EDIT: on point the problems are IMO

    1) parrying shouldn't have a stamina penalty... you already get free damage out of it
    2) the sparks indicating its a light parry should go.... if you don't know what you parried then its up to you to risk your punish or play safe and go for a light
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