Member
This question also addresses the devs.
We reached a point in this game's history where more and more tools that were satisfying for one of both parties, but unsatisfying for the other were nerfed or removed. Exemples: less ledge intensive maps, shugoki one hit ko demon's embrace on ganks, old shaman's bite, cent's cutscene, old stampede charge, dodge gb, nobu hidden stance's invulnerability to GBs and the list goes on.
With the most recent few patches. We saw a significant nerf (some would call nerf bomb) to shinobi. As a shinobi main I also found that other unrelated changes affected how he used his ranged gb. Principly the recovery and guardbreak counter window changes.
Overall I don't want to say that these changes are inherently bad for the health of the game, rather I find them well thought out. The problem is that reducing the frequency in which you hit ranged gb will not make it a fair and fun move for everyone like this game has been trying to do. I love shinobi's ranged gb, one of my favorite moves in the game and I would much rather rely on other more fair ways to hit it and hit it more often, than to hit it less and less as time passes.
I made a thread on a shinobi rework where we could work around all of shinobi's flaws and give him back what all offensive shinobi mains wanted from the beggining, without turning the character into a mindless spam machine like some other reworks. It even works better with the latest revenge changes.
Honestly I think the devs don't know what to do with shinobi and that's ok, but they can't leave him broken like that. I strongly recommend people who are interested to check out my old thread on how to make shinobi as balanced as kensei because the more time passes the more I think the idea fits the live game well.
Tell me do you want the move still in the game and get a small rework, or do you want it removed/reworked like shugoki ' s demon's embrace was?
Member
For a Shinobi main, you sure have a tendency to phrase your topics as if you're only asking for more nerfs; that's why your previous rework thread received such a negative response...because you started out by talking about how to nerf the Shinobi instead of prioritizing what to add in order to make the Shinobi more viable.
Before we talk about REMOVING even more utility from the Shinobi (including the neutral ranged GB), we need to determine what to ADD to fix the Shinobi's current vulnerability issues.
You're not going to get much support from other Shinobi main by headlining that his movesets should be decreased even more; the title of this thread just makes you come off as if you're looking for more Shinobi nerfs, even if your intent is to make the Shinobi more balanced.
As a general rule when pitching an idea, start out with the positives first and then go into the negatives, people will be more receptive that way.
Senior Member
You're the one who wants a Shinobi rework. That's how reworks... uhh work. You lose some things that weren't good for the game while gaining other things that are much more enjoyable.Originally Posted by Valoredramack Go to original post
Member
I think I want a shinobi rework even more, I never thought this many people would tell me I had a bad idea because there was some more nerfs to the character in my thread. All this to give more room for better mix-ups/offense.
If we compare shinobi to hitokiri, shinobi has a 600/500 ms kick as main offense, that has a huge wind up and that guarantees 25 damage. Hito has an easily accessible delayable 500 ms feintable kick, no wind up that guarantees 30 damage.
Shinobi's kick is useless, his backflip kick is meh and his deflect kick kinda of guarantees too much damage. I still like his deflect kick, I still like to not get guardbroken out of a whiffed kick, I still like to mix-up and to counter people with a well placed quad dash kick, I still like to gank someone with sickle rain pulling them down to their knees. I want to keep all of these tools, but I also want to address shinobi's offense, defense and gank problems. I want to build on these concepts while leaving the least amount of things behind.
I don't think shino's kick should be 500 ms, because of the wind up, I want it to return to it's day one stat 400ms. How do you balance it out if you also want to keep all the things I mentioned up. You do what I stated in the post .
You kick, follow-up not guaranteed but really easy to perform, then you guess if your opponent dodges or does not, like old lawbro's shove which was a mix-up liked by the community before his rework (it got removed because you would hit less shoves without shove on block and so shove needed a little boost.) then you could go for a fully fair sickle rain, or your standard long range attack, or punish a dodge attack after the kick, all of these are already in shinobi's move list by the way, they are just revamped moves. Your opponent is also happy because he doesn't have to run after you most of the match to punish you and you can attack 50 50 after 50 50 going threw one of the most enviable flows in the game.
Imagine getting a guaranteed sickle rain after a deflect kick because of a good read, that would be so cool. And what I mentioned was only a fourth of what I proposed to add, small changes but significant ones. They all fit, my only flaw, I thought it was ok to get rid of arguably one of the worst ways to play the character.
Bro
Member
You're missing my point, which is that your rework thread started out with a long list of nerfs.Originally Posted by KingOfThe735 Go to original post
If you start with the negatives first, then people will be less inclined to pay attention to your more positive ideas.
Human Beings are extremely biased creatures, so the order in which you approach ideas does matter.
Member
You don't need to speak on behalf of other players, I assume that KingOfThe735 isn't your lady friend and that he is capable of providing his own response,Originally Posted by ArchDukeInstinct Go to original post
Everyone here already knows that I want a rework and I have already stated multiple times that a rework is about giving some things and taking some things away, so your reply here is completely irrelevant.
The point of my comment in this thread isn't about the fact that I want a rework, it is about how the topic is framed and it is also about the order in which ideas are presented. Your reply is an indication that you didn't actually read the substance of my last post because you're saying things that don't make any sense. We all know what a Rework is and it's well-established that I had addressed my concerns about the Shinobi multiple times throughout multiple threads.
Right now, I merely gave KingOfThe735 some feedback because the way the he presents his suggestions has resulted in negative push back from other Shinobi main in his other thread (not just me) even when his ideas aren't that bad. So I am advising him to start with the positive suggestions for the Shinobi first and then talk about what he thinks should be nerfed afterward.
When you start a topic by talking about what privileges that you want to take away from someone, you instantly fall out of favor regardless of what benefits that you talk about providing later in the discussion. Most people don't read that thoroughly to begin with and your reply is evidence of that. So that is why I am advising KingOfThe735 to start with the good news first (buffs) to grab the ears of his audience before rolling into the bad news (nerfs).
Senior Member
Removing it might be unnecessary, it has some fair drawbacks and risks for great rewards. But this entirely depends on the rest of the kit, he is still some with a hulk arm on the right and no arm on the left, he should get his right nerfed for getting a left.
All this hyteria around this character is hilarious. Warlord was butchered two years ago and never recovered (since the testing ground changes don't look enough, he won't will in the near future). Pk spent more than a year in the absolute bottom, only getting a helpful change mere days ago. Aramusha was always considered one of the weakests, he is yet to receive a good buff. Those characters were not complained about as much combined in two years as shinobi in less than two months, and his nerfs wasn't even that unfair, nobody should have superarmor (that also bests bashes) on a bash, nor a backflip with superarmor that completely saves you after missing. He still kept the best movement speed, a great gank tool and some of his punishes are twice of the avarage. If we would remove warlord's headbutt completely and would slow down all his lights, we would receive less crying from them. Guess losing those safety wheels really hurts this much.
Member
Well are you trying to tell me that if my post wasn't negative at first it would be good. You see I wanted to start with the nerfs simply because I didn't want people to think he would become op or anything just way better.
But great point, I think I'm going to make a fully updated version of the post.
Thank you
