Jormungandr | Forums

[Tasmann44]

Now, I have a lot of opinions on the status of a lot of heroes. However, this is the single, solitary hero that I can 100% is in fact broken to the extent that it completely changes the game.

Jormungandr's punches and grabs have very glitchy animation, in that even if you time a dodge correctly, he just magically turns to face you at the mid-way point, and then still hits you no matter what you do. He also gets a nearly guaranteed punch any time you block one of his lights. He also is able to do his punch even if he misses his light. This same punch completely decimates your stamina, significantly more than centurion. This is absolutely absurd. This moveset is way too powerful for how relatively safe it is.

Just like hitokiri, he has an absurd ease, constant access to his hyper armor, making him virtually impossible to beat in a hit-trade match. The only way to counter him really seems like ganging, or parry every single light like a level 3 old-arcade bot. It's absolutely absurd. This character has no semblance of balance whatsoever, and the absolutely garbage animation work that makes him glitch into a lot of his moves is an even greater sin.

His unblockable heavies, especially his top, are insanely fast. Slow it down.

However, the greatest sin of all, is that he can even heal from getting outplayed. I was just in a custom match training with a friend, and I was playing Black Prior vs. his Jormungandr. When I flipped his punches and grabs, he actually still healed from it, so that it was almost canceling out my own attack. I have video evidence that I recorded showing that, should you be interested in seeing the absolute brokenness of this.

Honestly, if you keep going this route of making really OP, poorly designed heroes just to crank out the DLC sales, then all you're going to do is destroy your own client base, and essentially kill your own game by the end of this most recent line of heroes. Please do not design the next hero nearly as poorly as this one, and please remove Jormungandr until you can figure out how to actually make him balanced.

[HertZDiSaSteR]

Can't believe what I'm reading... Jorm is OP?? FFS... He's without a doubt the WORST hero in the roster. His moveset is way too powerful and he's safe?? Unbelievable. His moveset is trash, his lights are very easy to parry, he does way less damage than other similar heroes (he is a heavy), his bash is the worst bash in the game along with LB's shove.

His unblockable heavies, especially his top, are insanely fast. Slow it down. Here you are showing your lack of knowledge because all his UBs have the same speed, 800ms for all of them. The only true thing you said is that he heals on Bulwarks (should be fixed). The rest of the post is just a rant of someone who doesn't know how to counter one hero that I repite, is the WORST hero in the roster. You can go to the competitive FH reddit and ask there or to Clutch, Setmyx or whatever top player you want ask them if u dont' bellieve me. Don't take this as a personal attack (is not) or something, don't want to be rude just saying that you not being able to counter one thing doesn't make that thing OP. You just need more practise against him.

[DKHGames1138]

Can't believe what I'm reading... Jorm is OP?? FFS... He's without a doubt the WORST hero in the roster. His moveset is way too powerful and he's safe?? Unbelievable. His moveset is trash, his lights are very easy to parry, he does way less damage than other similar heroes (he is a heavy), his bash is the worst bash in the game along with LB's shove.

His unblockable heavies, especially his top, are insanely fast. Slow it down. Here you are showing your lack of knowledge because all his UBs have the same speed, 800ms for all of them. The only true thing you said is that he heals on Bulwarks (should be fixed). The rest of the post is just a rant of someone who doesn't know how to counter one hero that I repite, is the WORST hero in the roster. You can go to the competitive FH reddit and ask there or to Clutch, Setmyx or whatever top player you want ask them if u dont' bellieve me. Don't take this as a personal attack (is not) or something, don't want to be rude just saying that you not being able to counter one thing doesn't make that thing OP. You just need more practise against him.

So, let me ask you. Do you beat Hammer Hobos easily?

Let me tell you my experiences. After literal hours against those shrieking meth heads in practice. I have found that against a level three bot I can SOMETIMES parry their lights, and SOMETIMES dodge their bashes. Considerably less often; I can do this in multiplayer. Great, I dodged or parried, well, here's the problem. I try to counter attack, and they HA through my attack. Or I miss a parry on a light and because NONE of their lights are stopped by blocks, they just go into their bash without so much as missing a beat, and because the light causes a momentary stun EVEN ON A BLOCK, the window to dodge is even smaller. My health and/or my stamina disappears in half a dozen hits or so, and the fight is over. In duels and 4v4's I have successfully killed maybe a handful of hammer hobos, maybe. Even if I sometimes manage to get a health advantage, I run out of stamina trying, and then I'm getting hit in a very sensitive area. Followed very shortly thereafter by my hero's death.

On the subject of what pros say; I don't know if people who defend these brain-dead bash spam bots realize that for people with average or below reflexes, a lot of bash attacks are effectively too fast for them to reliably dodge. Bashes may even shut them down completely to the point that they don't feel like they're really participating in the fight. This is why bash spam is divisive. People with above average to exceptional reflexes, yeah, perfectly able to dodge bashes to the point where they become worthless. The problem is, like anything else, the above average folk are NOT the majority. So what they are or aren't able to do is effectively meaningless, as far as I'm concerned. Of course, at the end of the day, I think we both agree that hammer hobos are not as they should be.

[HertZDiSaSteR]

So, let me ask you. Do you beat Hammer Hobos easily?

Let me tell you my experiences. After literal hours against those shrieking meth heads in practice. I have found that against a level three bot I can SOMETIMES parry their lights, and SOMETIMES dodge their bashes. Considerably less often; I can do this in multiplayer. Great, I dodged or parried, well, here's the problem. I try to counter attack, and they HA through my attack. Or I miss a parry on a light and because NONE of their lights are stopped by blocks, they just go into their bash without so much as missing a beat, and because the light causes a momentary stun EVEN ON A BLOCK, the window to dodge is even smaller. My health and/or my stamina disappears in half a dozen hits or so, and the fight is over. In duels and 4v4's I have successfully killed maybe a handful of hammer hobos, maybe. Even if I sometimes manage to get a health advantage, I run out of stamina trying, and then I'm getting hit in a very sensitive area. Followed very shortly thereafter by my hero's death.

On the subject of what pros say; I don't know if people who defend these brain-dead bash spam bots realize that for people with average or below reflexes, a lot of bash attacks are effectively too fast for them to reliably dodge. Bashes may even shut them down completely to the point that they don't feel like they're really participating in the fight. This is why bash spam is divisive. People with above average to exceptional reflexes, yeah, perfectly able to dodge bashes to the point where they become worthless. The problem is, like anything else, the above average folk are NOT the majority. So what they are or aren't able to do is effectively meaningless, as far as I'm concerned. Of course, at the end of the day, I think we both agree that hammer hobos are not as they should be.

Yes, I beat Jorms quite easy. Also I'm a rep 15 Jorm so I know and understand how he works. I prefer being ganked by 4 Jorms than fighting a Conq on a 1v1 for example.

Welp, you are yourself asking the main question of this post. Some people can react better to bashes than other based on their reflexes but this thing, having a huge impact on everyones gameplay, doesnt imply that one thing is OP or not. I repeat it again and IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK TO ANYONE. You or me or whoever not being able to react or counter one thing doesnt make that thing OP or not balanced, is only that you or me or whoever is not able to react or counter that thing. Conq's or Warlord's bashes ar way harder to react to than Jorm's ones an the times are very similar. Is just the animations who "tell" you more or less information (or at least that's how I understand it). Look, I'm rep 300 with 2k hours on PC and I'm not able to dodge Conq's or Warlord's bash consistenly every time. I just can't, but I don't think they are OP (welp maybe a lil xD) ,annoying?? Yes, but not OP.

You need to understand how to play against any hero. In this case, you can't go crazy by being aggressive because you're gonna be OOS very quickly and punished very hard. When he's comboing you need to wait for him to end his combo (is just a 2 hit combo) to start your own one. You said you dodged or parried and try to counter attack and being punished by his HA. I need more info in here but I'm giving you some tips. If u dodged a basic attack you can't do anything still (maybe and only maybe you can GB him but has to be veru quick dedge), you need to wait for his combo to end. If you parried you can counter attack 100% of the times as qith every other hero. And if you dodged a combo attack, (remember that finisher lights are undodgeable) you have a window in which Jorms (and every hero un the game) is vulnerable to hits or GBs or other bashes depending on the recovery times.

And as you said in your final sentence, don't know how hammer hobos should be but you just can't nerf them at this point. He's has barely nothing to compete with other heroes in the roster. If anything he would need a buff on his damage. Not the Hamarr Slam of course but on his other basic and combo attacks. So yeah I agree that they are not as they should be, they shoulde be better. Of course this is my opinion. I'm sure Jorm is my smallest preocupation in the game when I have to face daily with almost unreactable bash spammers like Conq or Warden, Zerkers or Hitos.

[Dragtyr]

You need to understand how to play against any hero. In this case, you can't go crazy by being aggressive because you're gonna be OOS very quickly and punished very hard. When he's comboing you need to wait for him to end his combo (is just a 2 hit combo) to start your own one.

That is exactly the problem with Jorm imo.
When you attack him you also help him, you are using your stamina. Get parried just once and you're pretty much done and will kiss the ground unless you turtle like crazy.
But what is it that the developers want to avoid in the game? Right: Turtle meta. They want you to be more aggressive. Which you simply can't against a Jorm unless you play him yourself.

His design is completely flawed and doesn't go with what they want in the game. If you go aggressive on a Jorm you pretty much already lost. There shouldn't be any stamina based heroes because the stamina system is also flawed for ages now. If you get one of your heavies parried you are pretty much OOS. (7x the stamina cost) And if you're supposed to never let a heavy fly, then... why do they even exist in the first place?

Jorm doesn't fit the game right now. Maybe just maybe if they reworked the stamina system or finally buffed all the heroes with way weaker openers (Aramusha still has NONE) but as it stands he is just a complete design fail.

[DKHGames1138]

Yes, I beat Jorms quite easy. Also I'm a rep 15 Jorm so I know and understand how he works. I prefer being ganked by 4 Jorms than fighting a Conq on a 1v1 for example.

Given your amount of play time with the hero, I wonder if your perception might be skewed a bit. I can say that I disagree completely with your preference

Welp, you are yourself asking the main question of this post. Some people can react better to bashes than other based on their reflexes but this thing, having a huge impact on everyones gameplay, doesnt imply that one thing is OP or not. I repeat it again and IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK TO ANYONE. You or me or whoever not being able to react or counter one thing doesnt make that thing OP or not balanced, is only that you or me or whoever is not able to react or counter that thing. Conq's or Warlord's bashes ar way harder to react to than Jorm's ones an the times are very similar. Is just the animations who "tell" you more or less information (or at least that's how I understand it). Look, I'm rep 300 with 2k hours on PC and I'm not able to dodge Conq's or Warlord's bash consistenly every time. I just can't, but I don't think they are OP (welp maybe a lil xD) ,annoying?? Yes, but not OP.

I never took anything you said as a personal attack. My point is, that to me, and judging by the hate for the hero, the bashes are basically beyond the ability of many, if not most players to deal with. For the ones who CAN deal with them, they become laughable. I believe this is indeed poor balance to put the linchpin of a heroes offense on something that some people laugh at, and others cry at. As far as Conq or WL bashes, I don't feel like they're the cornerstone of their play style like Hammer Hobo's bashes. The WL and Conq bashes both chain of off, and, guarantee a light. To the point that I never feel threatened by them. The Hammer Hobo's bashes also chain off of a light, but their lights are all superior, and all bashes (and some heavies) guarantee knockdown on OOS, and that guarantees 50 damage and no children. Also, the "consistently" doesn't mean "all the time", it just means, that unless under pressure or facing distraction, one can avoid it, in practice mode for example, a slight majority of the time.

You need to understand how to play against any hero. In this case, you can't go crazy by being aggressive because you're gonna be OOS very quickly and punished very hard. When he's combo-ing you need to wait for him to end his combo (is just a 2 hit combo) to start your own one. You said you dodged or parried and try to counter attack and being punished by his HA. I need more info in here but I'm giving you some tips. If u dodged a basic attack you can't do anything still (maybe and only maybe you can GB him but has to be veru quick dedge), you need to wait for his combo to end. If you parried you can counter attack 100% of the times as qith every other hero. And if you dodged a combo attack, (remember that finisher lights are undodgeable) you have a window in which Jorms (and every hero un the game) is vulnerable to hits or GBs or other bashes depending on the recovery times..

"Know your enemy", right? Here's the problem "going crazy being aggressive" against a hammer hobo is making a couple of attacks, because they'll parry, trade with HA, or just eat the damage and wait for an opportunity to do one of the above, and then punish you for fighting them. The combos may only be two things long, but when those two things are superior lights and bashes that go off fast enough that they're still tough to defend against it doesn't really matter, I think. As far as if I manage to parry, they maybe eat an attack or on a good day, two, but then it's back to the HA or light/bash spam. As far as dodging, I'm out of reach for my own GB at that point, and if I can't react fast enough to dodge an attack, how am I supposed to GB on reaction? Other than GB, any other attack opens me up for a losing trade or more spam.

And as you said in your final sentence, don't know how hammer hobos should be but you just can't nerf them at this point. He's has barely nothing to compete with other heroes in the roster. If anything he would need a buff on his damage. Not the Hamarr Slam of course but on his other basic and combo attacks. So yeah I agree that they are not as they should be, they shoulde be better. Of course this is my opinion. I'm sure Jorm is my smallest preocupation in the game when I have to face daily with almost unreactable bash spammers like Conq or Warden, Zerkers or Hitos.

My point is, their stamina pressure is WAY too high, I refuse to accept any argument to the contrary. They drain stamina at such a rate that there's no point in throwing heavies, and lights won't wear down their HP fast enough to matter. As far as their normal attack damage, they seem to kill pretty much anything I play against them pretty quick, even without the cheap shot. As far as them being "better", I fail to see any way they could be better without being God-like. Their range is a bit low, and I think that's what's causing people (like yourself) to call them under-powered, but they seem to have the tools to survive up close. So short of maybe increasing the range of a couple of their attacks to cause some pressure at a distance, I don't think they need any buffs. As far as the other heroes you mention, Conq's bash is a joke AFAIC, it guarantees a light and seems to me to have a pretty long recover time. Warden's bash also, only allows a light, and also has what seems to me to be a fairly long recovery time. Zerkers have a bash? As far as berzerkers go, their heavy reliance on weapon attacks and dodge light makes them rather easy for me to parry, unless they're really good, but at that point, I'm getting outplayed. As far as Hitos, they just need a solid nerf, as far as I'm concerned. They are in the running with Shaman for what I consider to be the stupidest aesthetic and overall theme in the game. They're creepy Japanese nerds who are carrying around a weapon that they aren't actually strong enough to use, but they have mystical nonsense to make up for their MANY shortcomings. Also, they're not scary.

[HertZDiSaSteR]

Ok, let's go bit a bit with this. First of all, this post was about Jorm being broke (as we understand of him being OP) not if he fits the actual meta or if he goes against the devs idea of rewarding offense over defense. I never said such things and never gave my opinion on that way. Just stated that he is not OP. You'll never see a Jorm on competitive tournaments and this should be enough to convince anyone of him not being OP. Just think about this. You guys just think this: wont a competitive player not choose an OP hero when the only thing you want to do is win?? No sense.

Now, let's discuss other things more in detail. He has a strong OOS pressure?? Gaddam, he better has because all his gameplay is around this. He is "only good" with OOS enemies. But what about Conqs, HLs or Wardens for example, dont they have a very good OOS pressure as well?? I'm agree that maybe he drains to much stamina. I'm not against a nerf on this but this will put him just literally on the floor (he's allready there but ok).

Also I can say that my opinion is not skewed at all only because I play him. I main Zerk (rep 70) and I can say without a doubt that he is one of the best heroes in the roster. I have no problem on saying that. And trust me, I feel bad when I play him because I know his state and I avoid playing him only by not having to deal with a toxic chat with the typical sentences as "light spam" and all that ****.

50 damage on an OOS throw is too much?? Might be the one of the lowest OOS throw punishes in the game (if not the lowest). Conq's bash is a joke?? Welp, not for the 95% of the players. It only guarantess a light?? That's more that Jorm's bash guarantees which is nothing apart from the heal. And don't make me talk about Warden's 9999 types of charged bashes based on the time you charge it or even better the ability to cancel it when allready launched...

I didnt't said Zerk or Hito had bashes, just saying heroes that I deal with everyday and being way much annoying and, yes, OP than Jorm. Was a just misunderstood.

If you guys can deal with all of this and not with Jorms I can't do or say anything that will make you change your mind but it is what it is. As I said on my first paragraph you will never ever see a Jorm on the competitive scene and this is just because one and one only reason: he is not OP. Not even close.

[SixAxe505]

Jorm needs to be nerfed period. Stamina damage needs reduction by 30 percent. And hammer slam needs to go to 30 damage maximum. He can keep his feats if that happens. If not, those need to be nerfed to. The heal bash and shield slam specifically.

His moveset is simple but highly effective. He is too fast for a heavy. He lightspams until you do anything and then trades or parries. Hammer slam is guaranteed against an oos opponent and the problem is all the damage it took to get there, on top of a nifty fifty.

2 skilled players in a duel WILL, not possibly, but WILL go out of stamina at least once or twice a round. This is due to mix-ups, feints, blocks, parries...etc. Jorm turns that into free damage. It's bogus. The only counter is turtle. Then as soon as you do...they do.

[DKHGames1138]

Ok, let's go bit a bit with this. First of all, this post was about Jorm being broke (as we understand of him being OP) not if he fits the actual meta or if he goes against the devs idea of rewarding offense over defense. I never said such things and never gave my opinion on that way. Just stated that he is not OP. You'll never see a Jorm on competitive tournaments and this should be enough to convince anyone of him not being OP. Just think about this. You guys just think this: wont a competitive player not choose an OP hero when the only thing you want to do is win?? No sense.

I explained exactly why a pro player wouldn't choose them. Because to the people they're playing against have reaction times likely well above average. To people with above average reaction time, to the level of exceptional that you can expect at high tiers of play, they are a joke.

Now, let's discuss other things more in detail. He has a strong OOS pressure?? Gaddam, he better has because all his gameplay is around this. He is "only good" with OOS enemies. But what about Conqs, HLs or Wardens for example, dont they have a very good OOS pressure as well?? I'm agree that maybe he drains to much stamina. I'm not against a nerf on this but this will put him just literally on the floor (he's allready there but ok).

Only good? In 4v4 he wrecks players who are OOS. In duels, less so, but I have less experience there, and the one or two I have done against them has not ended in my favor.

Also I can say that my opinion is not skewed at all only because I play him. I main Zerk (rep 70) and I can say without a doubt that he is one of the best heroes in the roster. I have no problem on saying that. And trust me, I feel bad when I play him because I know his state and I avoid playing him only by not having to deal with a toxic chat with the typical sentences as "light spam" and all that ****.

I keep hearing Berzerker is great, and I do well when I'm playing berzerkers. What I can't figure out is WHY. Practically everything they do can be parried, I suppose at high levels of play you can expect a lot of feints, but even there, lights can't be feinted and all it takes is one light parry to ruin their day.

50 damage on an OOS throw is too much?? Might be the one of the lowest OOS throw punishes in the game (if not the lowest). Conq's bash is a joke?? Welp, not for the 95% of the players. It only guarantess a light?? That's more that Jorm's bash guarantees which is nothing apart from the heal. And don't make me talk about Warden's 9999 types of charged bashes based on the time you charge it or even better the ability to cancel it when allready launched...

It's not 50 damage on an OOS throw; it's 50 damage ending a chain combo that probably dealt about that much anyway, and in 4v4's it also grants a shield. As far as Conq goes. I did try out some bash spam from a conq, and if fighting near a wall or an edge it can be dangerous. I don't face many Conqs at the level of play I am at, and the ones I do face don't bash spam. As far as Jorm's bash, it does set up for a follow-up attack, and if the target is OOS, it does knock them down guaranteeing the opponent will not bear children. As far as Warden, in my personal experience, I have not seen too many players use this effectively. In any situation I've ever seen it be used effectively, it was done when the target was already backed into a corner with nowhere to go anyway.

I didnt't said Zerk or Hito had bashes, just saying heroes that I deal with everyday and being way much annoying and, yes, OP than Jorm. Was a just misunderstood.

I will restate my agreement that Hito needs to be looked at long and hard. Although I can say I've never really had that much trouble against zerkers that I've noticed.

If you guys can deal with all of this and not with Jorms I can't do or say anything that will make you change your mind but it is what it is. As I said on my first paragraph you will never ever see a Jorm on the competitive scene and this is just because one and one only reason: he is not OP. Not even close.

I will restate that the competitive scene is meaningless to people with lower than average to average reflex times. I would further add that many people don't have the time to spend to learn the tricks and strats that the pros use. To those people, the hero makes them feel like they don't have control of their own character. It's the same problem that the Centurion has. They're kind of hot garbage, but it makes people feel like they're not really participating in the fight. I also don't believe I said hammer hobos were "OP" in general, but divisive because players who lack the requisite level of investment or reaction time find them impossible to beat, but to those with the investment and reaction time; they're a joke. That's poor balance all around.

[Tasmann44]

The fact of the matter is the the majority of the For Honor populace is not that conglomerate of tryhards who have those exceptional reaction times. The fact of the matter is that the majority of the For Honor populace plays regular old dominion and doesn't even bother with tournaments. I personally do not have time in my life to waste on a poorly balanced game to the amount that I'd be able to overcome bad hero design, nor the patience for such nonsense. As a paying customer, neither I nor any of the other members of the majority populace should EVER have to deal with heroes designed to only be countered by professionals who practically play this game for a living, or short thereof. Not to mention, that not everyone can afford the top-tier PC hardware to ensure no mechanical limitations, and that includes internet connections. The developers are currently digging this game's own grave with the approach that they have been taking as of late, and honestly, if they don't change their approach soon, they will eventually lose both the majority populace as well as the experts.

Heck, I don't even need to actually be properly lagging in order to be limited by internet connection. When I'm at college, my dorm wifi is absolute crap, cheapest plan that can be had, usually getting only 20mbps or so in download speed. To put it in perspective, at home I'm able to get 150 mbps reliably, and I can fight much better at home than at the dorms, however even then, since it is a wifi connection, it still falls short of all the ethernet users who have all the best gear and hardwired everything. My PC is good, but it's nowhere near the kind of PC's they'd have.

When you consider how crucial of a role hardware plays in this game, it's actually really quite sad. This is 100% the definition of a pay-to-win game. "We're going to design our game so that in order to fight well, you'll need the best gear, and waste the most money!" I don't have those kinds of resources, and neither does the majority of the people that play For Honor.

Stop trying to argue that the devs need to continue catering to the super, top-tier competitive players, because looking at that proposition as a business model, it makes no sense for them. You are asking them to continue killing their own game.

This new meta of hyper armor on every starter/heavy starter/all kinds of stamina draining & knocking down kicks/punches/grabs is nothing but the stuff that was sprinkled throughout the older heroes, and multiplied to a ridiculous factor. Heck, back when I first started playing For Honor, I didn't even see this much salt nearly about Shaman. Even when Jiang Jun came out for Wu Lin, he was not received nearly as poorly as these latest heroes have been. All three of them came out massively OP at first. Black Prior was already nerfed a little bit, although I think he still begs some nerfing (I say that as a rep 7 black prior btw), but both Hitokiri and Jormungandr absolutely are way overdue for a nerf. I literally got cheesed tonight by a Hitokiri in a ranked duel who only had 6 REPS TOTAL, and only 2 of them were in hitokiri, and literally all he did was keep spamming different heavies and lights. There is no consequence at all to these new heavy-class heroes. The thing about the old heavy-class heroes is that while they were able to tank a lot of hits, they were not able to just deal out a lot of damage really quickly with no real threat to themselves. Heck, conqueror is a heavy, and yet I can't even remember which solitary move of his actually has hyper armor (none of the ones that do damage, I can tell you that right now). The thing about the old heavies is that they were build to slowly wear enemies down. Now, the new ones are dancing around like ballerinas, or completely ignoring the fact that a huge piece of sharp steel just went through their faces and just attack you anyway, or glitching out their animations and instantly throwing a punch at you (this would be jorm, of course).

It's honestly a poor, poor effort given into making a hero, and I sincerely hope that Jormungandr is taken out of the game until he can be reworked into something reasonable. Same goes for hitokiri.