Originally Posted by
Knight_Raime
Go to original post
Usual statements aside. I make bad titles, this isn't wholistically my own opinion but i'm sharing it anyway, this is indeed another ramble, it will be all over the place blah blah blah blah. SO, I got the idea to post this from watching Zero_Craic's stream segment covering Raveyne's most recent video involving the state of balance. If you're not aware of who Craic he is a former console casual player that over his time spent playing this game has moved over to pc and is now a tournament level player. And if you're not aware of the whole Raveyne video here is a quick TLDW of it:
"Devs should cater to the majority instead of the minority. There is a massive disconnect in the community."
It doesn't take a genius to understand why this is a very polarizing video and why it's picked up some traction. And to be fair Raveyne does make some accurate points in the video. The biggest two being the developers really need to tackle this disconnect in the community and be more vocal about it. And that there is an actual disconnect in the community. Unfortunately he also got a lot wrong with what he was saying. But this thread isn't about pointing out those false statements. This thread is about dropping some hard truths and dispelling very popular statements that are made across the community.
Us versus them mentality and the misuse of the term balance.
Both in the video and in the community in general there is this very harmful perspective in that one side is correct over another side. And that sides have to be picked. Weather this is about console versus pc or pro players versus casual players. For WHATEVER reason people believe that it has to be one over the other. When this has never ever ever been the case. Not with for honor and certainly not with other games. The developers one and only goal has always been to make the game as enjoyable as possible for as many players as possible. They do not pick sides and if you've been around awhile you can point out areas in where changes are made that would seem to favor one side or the other. So the developers clearly don't have a favorite.
So why is it that this concept is not only one that exists but is continued to be used in discussion? That is where we talk about Balance. more specifically people's false perception on what balance is. Balance isn't just about straight power level. Balance also is about the design of the hero. Is the hero fun to play as/against? What does a player gain in benefit from getting better with the hero? What is the learning curve like for the hero? What are the meta ways to play the hero once mastered?
Players often overly focus only on the power level aspect of the hero. (aka tier lists.) And here is the first hard to swallow pill, Pro players don't only discuss power level of a hero. They discuss all aspects of the hero. Just because the pros claim that Warden is an S tier hero that doesn't mean said pro players think warden's whole kit is perfectly fine. This doesn't mean that they wouldn't want to see more variety in his kit. The reason Warden is talked about positively AT ALL is because Warden is a very good example of a workable offense that is basic. In other words he's a hero that proves you can have a pretty basic concept that allows a player to have offense without being overly mechanical or complex.
Back to the point, balance can be achieved for many types of players regardless of skill level. You often here players talk about balancing from the top down but it's never really elaborated on. Basically let's call the top the "meta" play and the bottom "causal play." The idea from balancing the top down (if done correctly) is that the game is enjoyable at both levels of play. The reason top level play is important is because you WANT to attract new players. Answer me this. When you're looking to get into a a video game what would be more interesting for you to watch?
What someone with basic gear is doing in an early level mission. Or seeing late gameplay where someone is mostly decked out in gear doing cool things and fighting something that looks amazing? This translates to pvp games as well. What's more fun to see? Someone who doesn't have a solid grasp on the gameplay but is laughing it up and having a jolly time. Or a group of players making clutch communications that massively swing a team fight to win them the game? It's the latter in both cases. This is why watching fighting tournaments at EVO is such a big deal. This is why competitive play exists in pvp games. If the top level of play looks fun it's going to drive players to want to learn how to get to that level and do it themselves. Which is a lovely segway into my next point.
The often used but clearly misunderstood disconnect.
There is indeed a massive disconnect between both parts of the community and the developers in communication with us. But it's nothing to do with how the game is balanced. I mean sure. If things are not properly explained (or worse you continually publish misleading info cough state of balance cough,) then confusion will ensue. But the REAL disconnect is actually much bigger than that. The first part being the idea that pro players are very "anti casual" and don't care for fun. Let me smack you with another hard to swallow pill.
The pro players WANT more people to get better so the competitive scene grows. They WANT the game to be more fun in general. They would NOT have a problem with changes being made to the game that benefits casual players. The problem is the suggestions put forth by said casual players are not only aimed at attacking power level of a hero only but they also are highly misinformed.
This isn't casual players fault. This is where the second half of the disconnect comes from. The power/learning curve of the game let alone the heros is terrible. For honor isn't a very mechanical heavy game. For the most part the mechanics are very straight forward. You maybe have a few match up specific situations where there is complexity. But for the most part For honor's "depth" as it were lies within team play. And this is where the problem starts.
The game doesn't teach you frick when it comes to this. How many casual players know the importance of spacing and positioning? Rotations? taking advantage of hitstun/block stun? etc. The game does a VERY poor job of explaining how to play itself. So it's no wonder that players are walking around with these misinformed perspectives. What is called "exploiting" or "cheesy" is how the game is actually MEANT to be played. You're supposed to dip out of a 3v1 you just arrived at instead of committing. You're SUPPOSED to hold revenge as long as you can to stall as long as you can. etc.
The curve from starting out to making it to "meta" play is absolutely garbage and is THE main reason there is such a divide between gameplay from casual play and meta play. And that's another quick pill for you. Meta's are not created by pro players nor do devs create them with intent. Meta's are discovered by pro players and the developers react to the discovery and make changes based around what they like/don't like about it.
Reality hurts like a sack of bricks.
We're about done here. But I wanted to go out with a hard hitting truth. er, well several. Firstly. an absolute majority of players in this game are bad. Not like having an off day bad. But like "I can't hold a controller that's ductaped to my hand" level of bad. And as i've said already. This isn't all their fault. The game doesn't teach you how to play it. The reason I bring this up is because people constantly bring up examples of other players, examples of their own experiences, dev "data" you name it. The reality is this. If you don't play a character optimally you don't have them mastered. If you don't know match up specifics then you don't know what you're talking about. If you don't know how to play dominion then you don't have much sway with your opinion. yes, casual perspective is important. Because that curve needs to exist. But someone who spends dozens of hours learning the game in and out, that guy who sits in the top .0001% of players is going to have more weight because he KNOWS what he's talking about.
You probably have an abnormal console setup. So your experience isn't catered to. We all know the terrible input delay that the console version has. Yes, it's insane that you have to alter a basic gaming setup to get over most of that. There's nothing that can be done about it. Running an optimal console setup is comparable to a low spec pc or gaming laptop. So it's not like console play in its entirety is a dumpster fire. The reality of the situation is you have an avenue to improve your experience on console. Or you can move to pc whenever they make it free (which they're doing it a lot lately.) If you don't want to change your setup that's perfectly fine. But don't expect to have any weight when it comes to discussions. You either tough it out, improve your situation, or you leave.
Finally I just want to say that I'm not agreeing or stating that every change that's been made or will be made is a good decision. A very recent example is how shinobi and nobushi were treated. Both needed nerfs. Both got nerfs in the areas they needed to be nerfed in. (shinobi still needs some nerfs.) But they both needed buffs as well. This is where the developers really struggle and have typically struggled in the past. They don't do enough simultaneous adjustments. The competitive community was just as upset about nobushi being thrown in the trash as were average players. They were also screaming for her to be buffed as well. But the reality remains that they both needed nerfing. And if you didn't use their kit properly and to their fullest in the context of how dominion is played then you can't really argue against the nerfs. Because you lack the fundamental understanding of not only how the game is meant to be played but the mastery of a hero. It's all well and good to share opinions and no one is saying you can't express yourself. But if you're going to weigh in on the changes and actually WANT your feedback to mean something then you actually NEED to know what you're talking about.
Well that's that...whatever that is. As always I appreciate everyone who takes the time to read my threads. Even if you disagree with me and think i'm a jerk. (:
Senior Member
Senior Member
Senior Member
Senior Member
Banned
