How to fix Jörmungandr | Forums

[Tyrjo]

The opinions of Jörmungandr seems to split the community in two, while the top tier players say it is a very weak hero in almost all game modes, beginners and casuals find the hero very oppressive. This thread is an attempt to make Jörmungandr a more interesting hero to play as and against, and be something else than a just a noob crushing stamina bully. It effectively makes is very risky to attack Jörmungandr and that isn't healthy for the game.

Stamina damage has been reduced across the board and the Hamarr Slam has been nerfed slightly. To compensate for this, other parts of the kit have been buffed.

I am by no means saying this is the only way to update the hero. You can all chip in with your own ideas, it's very welcome. I would also like to add: Keep this thread civil and on topic. Thank you for reading.

General
Jörmungandrs hit points have been increased from 130 to 140.

To make Jörmungandr be more of a tank and to be able to trade better, the number of hit points have been increased by 10.

The 80 damage punish on an unbalanced victim, in which you light whiff, unblockable heavy, then perform the Hamarr Slam is no longer possible to perform.

Is this punish truly working as intended? I don't feel this kind of punish belongs in the game as it just makes people even less inclined to lose precious stamina by attacking.

Damage values
Hamarr Slam now does 40 damage.

Basic heavy damage has been increased to 30 from the sides and 35 from the top.

Chained top heavy now does 35 damage.

Jörmungandr has very low heavy damage and to compensate for reduced Hamarr Slam damage and decreased stamina drain, the heavies have had their damage increased.

Chains
Top chained heavy attacks are no longer unblockable.

This change will make the opponent have to read if the top red is a light or heavy and it will make deflects slightly more risky to perform since you can bait deflect attempts with feinted top chain heavies.

It is now possible to mix up the chain with a Jötunn Farewell (the in chain bash) and continue into the second attack of the chain. F.e. go L, bash, L or L, bash, H. The Stamina damage on the Jötunn Farewell has been reduced by 15 to 40.

To add additional pressure providing more options in the attack chains.

Jötunn Surge
The stamina damage on Jötunn Surge has been reduced by 10 stamina to 30. Jötunns Surge now does 10 damage. Range and tracking have slightly increased.

Having a slow bash that does not even confirm damage makes it an almost redundant move due to its high recovery. The confirmed damage makes it at least somewhat dangerous and it will become something you want to avoid even more. Improved tracking will make it harder to just back dodge when out of stamina.

Jötunn Gift
Jötunn Gift (the parry counter) now has longer input window making it impossible to parry a heavy and confirm the Jötunn Surge for 84+40 stamina damage. Jötunn Gift simply comes out instead.

The huge stamina punish from one parry promotes turtling and staring contests.

Serpent Smite
The tracking and range of Serpent Smite have been increased to make it a better chase down tool. The damage has been increased from 25 to 30.

[Knight_Raime]

I think reducing the damage on the slam to 40 is fine. But I disagree about buffing the heavy openers. At least the side heavy openers. As side heavy finishers wall splat and those confirm a follow up heavy currently for 55 damage total.

The removal of the unblockable top heavy finisher is interesting. But I don't think the top heavy has good enough tracking to hit someone attempting to deflect it. It's something i'd have to check.

The chain change is slightly confusing. Are you saying the in combo bash chains into opening attacks? Because if so you create an infinite there which might be too strong.

I'm not sure how I feel about the neutral bash doing damage/confirming damage. As right now it's very good at dealing with mix ups and discourages people heavily because of that.

Everything else sounds alright with me.

[Tyrjo]

The chain change is slightly confusing. Are you saying the in combo bash chains into opening attacks? Because if so you create an infinite there which might be too strong.

No, I mean that it chains into finishers. Right now if you attack then bash the chain ends there.

[Knight_Raime]

No, I mean that it chains into finishers. Right now if you attack then bash the chain ends there.

Right I just wanted to make sure. I am cool with that idea.

[KitingFatKidsEZ]

Overall i like the suggestion, have an upvote. My favorite change by far is the parry+stam dmg combo nerf. Thats very needed for the mentioned reasons. However i personally still think that..

You know.. maybe parries shouldnt take your entire bloody stamina bar?! You already take damage for attacking, how about we make it so you dont lose instantly because you went oos off 1 parry after you dared to attack without top end stamina. Same thing for feints. Has been mentioned countless times. See freezes video... stamina costs are too damn high. They really are wayyyy too high.

@topic I feel like one of his huge disadvantages in duel rn is that he actually GIVES BACK all stamina to his opponent when using his punish. Its somewhow one of the least threatening opponents to fight when oos in duel because not only does he need some really good setup to even land it but even if he does, the damage kills in "only 3 hits" and it literally gives you back stamina.

If you go oos against highlander theres a good chance you just die. If you go OOS against raider and miss any of his UB mixup shenanigans you take at least 50 damage, most of the time youre just dead instantly. If you go oos against warden, theres a pretty good chance you just die.

Lowering his damage to 40 wont help anyone except the op characters (since those all have over 120 hp anyway). I dont dislike the idea of lowering his damage at least for 4s since others can set up for him there but in duels it pretty much doesnt matter. Either way for an impactful nerf it would have to be less than 40 otherwise we just give people another reason to play the op characters.

[Amerikanovich]

I'd suggested the ability to soft feint his heavy finishers into light finishers in another thread just to make him a little bit less predictable, he needs more options.

[Tyrjo]

I'd suggested the ability to soft feint his heavy finishers into light finishers in another thread just to make him a little bit less predictable, he needs more options.

Thanks for your input.

[Tyrjo]

Jörmungandr needs more stamina. You expend a hell of a lot of stamina to land your stuff with feints etc.

Either 140 or 145 is needed.

[DeepfriedOgre]

The opinions of Jörmungandr seems to split the community in two

I believe the opinions merge on the point that a lot of Jörmungandr players keep abusing one or two combos in most fights as these combos require precise timing to avoid (and are especially deadly in non-duel situations). I don't fault them, those moves (punching after everything) are really effective (insert "effective" meme here) because the punch has a similar timing to the BP's shield bash, which (ironically) gives the BP a lot less damage potential. Also, he doesn't have a lot more combo potential outside these attacks (which could be the reason that top tier players find it weak).

My suggestion would be to rethink the punch and its potential compared to other similarly timed moves (I keep bringing up the BP shield bash because that is/was abused a lot in matches, too, and I experience it to be as fast the punch). If I'd have to be more specific I'd suggest severely reducing the damage output of the punch move's follow up (the 50 dmg attack that also resets staminas) or increasing the time on the punch/grab - maybe even both. I also believe that punching after a parry (where the attacker goes out of stamina at the time of the parry) shouldn't give Jörmungandr the opportunity to perform the knockout punch and the 50 dmg attack.

Otherwise I think I agree with your proposed changes!

PS. Sorry for not referencing moves by their proper names, I usually can't remember the exact names. I hope that saying "Jörmungandr punch" does bring up the correct move in everyone's mind.

[Tyrjo]

Thanks for your input. The punch in chain you refer to is called Jötunn Farewell.