Jormungandr and Hitokiri; Swing and a miss for game direction? | Forums

[AlphawolfyUP]

From what I can gather from my time so far and from the thoughts of those I play with, I have some huge concerns with the game's direction right now. No this isn't a 'new champs are op pls nerf' post, its more my thoughts around how they are built and the comparison between that and how supposedly we all don't want to go back to the turtle meta.


New releases seem to focus a ton on HA openers matched with the occasional mixup bash / feint into GB. On the surface a full offensive kit looks to be exactly the way to stop a turtle match, but scratch the surface and the reality is the opposite. For example its common to see Hitokiri's relying on throwing out heavies and mixups while not actually commiting to anything, just fishing for the moments where their opponent also happens to be attempting an attack and picking up the easy trade from that. This is not only frustrating to face but extremely boring to play as too, as it ironically forces the opponent to turtle and wait for a parry/dodge opportunity. Full offense design is not a viable solution to turtle playstyles, it's the cause of them.

If ubisoft actually wants to end the slow pacing of fights, they are going in completely the wrong way about it, the more vulnerable, mobile classes, those a little lacking in HA, while considered trash by most are what they should be actually looking to draw from, because despite them being next to useless in 4v4 game modes, they are easily the most enjoyable classes for almost everyone I know, because they are fast and offensive but carry a large degree of risk to their actions, unlike the 2 new additions. The fact the most fun classes are being pushed into obscurity by tanky, dull, HA or disable dependant ones is the key issue with this game in my opinion, and is a huge red flag to me while im trying to work out if the devs actually know how to tackle the issues, and in turn, if the game is worth sticking by in the hopes it will improve soon.

I know 'make things more like the trash classes' seems like a stupid request, but the reality is they are fun, and they are only trash because of the design of the stronger classes plays into the meta far better- change that and suddenly all these interesting and tbh more enjoyable playstyles become viable again, which is supposedly the direction we are supposed to be moving in anyway...

[The_B0G_]

I've been saying this since they started piling HA on all these reworks and new characters.

With so much HA you have to wait until you get a parry or they tire themselves out before counter attacking. HA on openers are especially to blame for this.

HA shouldn't initiate before a light attack can hit, unless the light attack was thrown later than the HA heavy. Zerkers 400 ms HA light shouldn't even exist, zerkers can just spam through their routine blindfolded because they don't need to react to anything their opponent does, unless they get parried, then they get hit and go right back to their routine.

[Hormly]

I think warlord is a good example of HA done fairly, new characters not so much

[Goat_of_Vermund]

As you wrote Amon, 400ms lights are reactable. So, there is your solution to lightspam, react and punish.

If someone can be defeated with lightspam only, they really deserve the L.

[The_B0G_]

Those are needed to stop light spammers. They are already gonna delay Hitokiri's HA on his starting heavy I think.

If that's the case, every hero who doesn't have light spam needs early initiation HA openers, and that would set the game back to season 2 with the staring contests.

[The_B0G_]

I think warlord is a good example of HA done fairly, new characters not so much

Totally agree, I've suggested the same before, Warlord and HL are examples of HA done right. HL could even use a 100ms buff to HA initiation but I think WL is in a perfect spot.

[Sneakly20]

Totally agree, I've suggested the same before, Warlord and HL are examples of HA done right. HL could even use a 100ms buff to HA initiation but I think WL is in a perfect spot.

I heavily disagree. Jorm hyper armor is in a good spot. It’s not early enough to beat a miss timed parry unlike hito. Highlander and WL kicks in too late.

[The_B0G_]

I heavily disagree. Jorm hyper armor is in a good spot. It’s not early enough to beat a miss timed parry unlike hito. Highlander and WL kicks in too late.

I never tried Jorge yet so I can't speak for him, but Shugoki, Hitokiri, and Zerkers all promote turtling, which is what the dev team has been trying to exterminate from the game for over a year(maybe 2 years? IDK, I'm getting old). I feel like HA should have to be used on prediction. If someone is being very predictable, HA attacks should be the go-to move.

They make attacking safe, sure, which is what they intended, but on the other side of the coin on defense all you can do is block and dodge, because parrying is too risky due to all the variable timings and feints.

[Knight_Raime]

I heavily disagree. Jorm hyper armor is in a good spot. It’s not early enough to beat a miss timed parry unlike hito. Highlander and WL kicks in too late.

I echo this statement. 400ms seems like a decent spot for non variable neutral heavies. With charged heavies it might be enough for their raw heavies but their charged versions get HA instantly when you let go which lets you trade on reaction as well. No idea how they could address that without making charged attacks feel pretty bad.

Berzerker probably has the best use of HA in his kit in terms of temperment. It's strong but the nature of his kit asks you to take repeated risks in return. So there is constant give and take with it.

[AlphawolfyUP]

I've been saying this since they started piling HA on all these reworks and new characters.

With so much HA you have to wait until you get a parry or they tire themselves out before counter attacking. HA on openers are especially to blame for this.

HA shouldn't initiate before a light attack can hit, unless the light attack was thrown later than the HA heavy. Zerkers 400 ms HA light shouldn't even exist, zerkers can just spam through their routine blindfolded because they don't need to react to anything their opponent does, unless they get parried, then they get hit and go right back to their routine.

Strangely enough despite all the raider issues right now, I feel like their HA chains are definately the correct way to do it if you are going to give a class trading tools. They have to earn that HA with an opener, rather than just getting it for free out of the gate.