Warden will be indirectly buffed too much after the next update | Forums

[Liduras]

With the last several updates and the next update, all off his negative matchups (except for Conqueror) will be nerfed. His offence will also be much stronger than before (read the 'edits' below). He will even have a positive matchup against Zerker after the dodge/roll changes and the unnecessary Zerker nerf (who thought that Zerker's 15 damage is too much but Warden's 18 damage double light and 40 damage top heavy after a safe mixup are balanced?). Especially the next update will make Warden's risk/reward ratio significantly lower. Risk/reward ratio = (Δ(chance of taking damage x damage taken)/Δ(chance of dealing damage x damage dealt))

He atleast needs a damage nerf now. Just remove his double light attack and reduce his top heavy opener damage to 30.

Warden also has a second problem now: his defense. With the nerfs of every other strong defensive move in the game, Warden's defense will be much stronger than others. With his dodge into shoulderbash defense, he can cancel a part of his GB vulnerability after a dodge, feint it if his oppenent feints his attack (can't be baited like other dodge attacks), and it is a bash (even safer than other feintable dodge attacks).

For this problem, do these:

• Remove backdodge into shoulderbash
• Remove hyperarmor from side-dodge into shoulderbash
• Add 100 ms GB vulnerability to side-dodge into shoulderbash

EDIT: With the next update (dodge and roll nerfs), not only rolling will be useless against Warden (no more avoiding two timing of his bash), but Warden players will also be able to release the shoulderbash on reaction to dodging to get guaranteed damage. So, Warden players will be able to use the shoulderbash as a 100% safe unpunishable bait mixup from long range (at close range, we will only be able to light attack him out of the mixup, which can be counterad with a parry into 40 damage top heavy by Warden)

EDIT 2: I forgot to mention that his UB heavy mixup will be a strong 50/50 mixup.

[KitingFatKidsEZ]

EDIT:
This video demonstrates the problem pretty well.

Start at 6:30 . For some reason it never works using the embed, at least for me.

https://youtu.be/XY7arWbThj4?t=391

So basically he just fishes for the bp to make an input all the time. In addition he gets all the pressure just of charging over and over and the bp cant approach because if he does he just eats the shoulder. You also see the proper spacing fairly easily between the times where he just backdodge shoulders over and over and the times where he suddenly stops using it at all.

You also get to see how good the shoulder is as a tool to recover instantly and just get other inputs afterwards wether its parry, gb or anything else and as tool to just avoid mixups in general AND get a free punish on top..

And after that he still has the rest of wardens kit which, fun fact, is actually not the worst thing ever.
/EDIT

dito

https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.ph...-off-backdodge

also mentioned the fact that the reward for the good 50/50s in the game rn is always higher than the risk damage wise in some other post

very much what op said

[Knight_Raime]

Zerk's damage was nerfed at the request of competitive players. So.

Back dodge into bash makes his back dodge slightly better. But it doesn't make his bash safer. It still should be addressed at some point for sure. But it's not op or anything.
Your other nerfs are not needed.

You can still option select him if he's going for a long charge. And there are still character specific tools that will ignore his bash game.
He's going to get better. But he's already the best duelist in the game. This imo is properly balanced by him being less than stellar in 4's.

The only thing that realistically seperates berzerker and warden in duels is how they hurt people. A feintable bash versus a fast light. At the end of the day it's easier to block/parry a light than it is to deal with a charge bash. Warden being better than zerker in duels isn't as big of a thing as you're potentially making it sound.

[KitingFatKidsEZ]

Back dodge into bash makes his back dodge slightly better. But it doesn't make his bash safer.

I think what we are refering to with backdodge bash in particular is using it as whiff punish bait and defensive tool (you literally just use it on any indicator) which is 100% safe with proper spacing. You either get the whiff and take the guaranteed bash or you cancel if the guy feinted.

Its super op honestly.. its up there with conq zone.

[Knight_Raime]

I think what we are refering to with backdodge bash in particular is using it as whiff punish bait (you literally just use it on any indicator) which is 100% safe with proper spacing. You either get the whiff and take the guaranteed bash or you cancel if the guy feinted.

You can use it that way yes. But it's baitable if you're going for uncharged bash. If you back dash, slight charge, and feint everytime it is totally a lot safer. But at that point you're not using your bash so much in the way that this patch really effects him. Like I said. it 100% needs to be addressed eventually. But it's not the biggest deal. At least imo.

[KitingFatKidsEZ]

You can use it that way yes. But it's baitable if you're going for uncharged bash. If you back dash, slight charge, and feint everytime it is totally a lot safer. But at that point you're not using your bash so much in the way that this patch really effects him. Like I said. it 100% needs to be addressed eventually. But it's not the biggest deal. At least imo.

no the point is you dont get to play the game. You cant do anything. because if you do anything he backdodges into bash and if you COMMITTED to whatever you decided to do you get bashed 100% ez dmg for free and if you DIDNT COMMIT he just feints the bash and nothing happened

Its basically shinobi light whiff backflip into charge ranged gb on whiff bait for 5 minutes, not as asinine since hes not as fast but you get the idea. The tool itself is busted.

[Knight_Raime]

no the point is you dont get to play the game. You cant do anything. because if you do anything he backdodges into bash and if you COMMITTED to whatever you decided to do you get bashed 100% ez dmg for free and if you DIDNT COMMIT he just feints the bash and nothing happened

Its basically shinobi light whiff backflip into charge ranged gb on whiff bait for 5 minutes, not as asinine since hes not as fast but you get the idea. The tool itself is busted.

mmm. If he's properly spacing I could see that.

[LightUpTheEyes]

I think they should just take out the feint and make him commit to one of the 3 charges. Maybe lower the guaranteed dmg on a fully charged sb. Lower his recovery so you don't get a gb on reaction and he should be good to go.

[rottmeister]

*happy shoulder noises*

Ngl fighting Wardens will be scary

[UbiInsulin]

Definitely something to keep an eye on. Freeze mentioned the changes helping Warden in his video today:

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