Senior Member
First of, just to be fair, I never touched shinobi, mainly because I find his current playstlye irritating, he looks unpleasing for me, and I hate his/her voicelines and the voices they make (excluding the ones where she is hit or dies, I really like to hear them). Fixing the second or third might be impossible for me, so I will never play shinobi no matter what playstyle we device for them, and I really, really hated to fight them, so I actually don't feel bad at all about this. Meanwhile, that is exactly what happened to my main a year ago and she never fully recovered from the unimaginative nerfs sold as reworks she received, and while I really, really dislike shinobis, the treatment is the same unjust one. I have a few ideas about a rework for a more interesting playstyle I would like to share, I would really like to get some feedback from shinobi players who deeply know the character. If my rework ideas prove to be bad, at least this might start a conversation about the future of the character (which is hopefully a more brighter one than peacekeeper's).
First, here is the main source of my inspiration if you would like to see: https://youtu.be/2UAgAvQZGKo?t=65
I really like how the movement works in this game, and there are other chain weapons in other games and anime when they make very creative and effecitve use of the weapon. Yeah, it is not really possible to control the movement of a weapon like this, but realism is really something the shinobi gives zero ****s about, given the fact they are very, very different from the real ones, so let's permanently drop this argument! The important part is, compared to these, Shinobi is extremely limited on the ranged department excluding those cheap ranged gbs from the blindside, the character was always a really passive, reactive one with quite unfair damage numbers and gimmicks close to exploits in return for the total ineffectiveness on the departement that was supposed to be the enough feature. I try to address this in the version written down below. Since this change is almost a complete overhaul, I write down the complete character instead of going into detailed changes.
Basics:
The character gets that 10 health bonus to have the standard 120 all assassins and assassin-based hybrids (and for some reason the Highlander) have. Deflects work by inputting a light on the succesful deflect, they only deal 35 damage now via an unblockable hit (15 of it is bleed), but they do not guarantee anything further the damage, and they do not break hyperarmor- however, this acts as a chainstarter, and the shinobi recovers his guard in time to block a followup hyperarmor attack. The parry followup is only 18 damage now, 17 of it is bleed. There is no guaranteed light after a succesful light or heavy. Kicks no longer guarantee anything, but they deal 15 damage. Unless stated otherwise, normal lights deal 13 damage, normal heavies deal 28 damage. No change on stamina or stamina cost, and the new guard length stays. Double dodge is no longer possible backwards, only forward and for the sides, but the stamina cost is either removed or greatly reduced. Bleed stacks.
Close combat:
- Every 2 hit chains are possible. Lights are 500ms,, heavies are 800ms. Heavy finishers guarantee sickle rain and are undodgable.
- The shinobi gets the ability to softfeint dodge out from his heavy startups and from the second part of his zone.
- In addition of the kick, double dodge can be chained into an undodgable light that deals 20 damage on contact. Similarly to other dodge attacks, it comes from the side of the dodge. The move can be used with different inputs, the indicator appaers for 500-466ms depending on how late it was imputted.
- Kick can be chained from single dodges (excluding back dodge) too. There is a 300ms dodge window for the kick, which can be chained into backflip on hit or on miss (but since hyperarmor is gone, a dodge attack is guaranteed if dodged).
Ranged combat:
- Just like now, the shinobi is twirling the kusarigama, which is blue if the target is in range, red if not. It is maintaned by holding R2/Heavy button (letting it go will perform a ranged heavy).
- The shinobi has lower stamina consumption in ranged combat than in close. However, if he uses it for turtling (he does no action for 3 seconds other than walking), the stance will start to rapidly drain his stamina (stops if he performs an action).
- No guard in ranged mode. Dodging/deflecting is possible, but doing so will result in leaving the Ranged Mode.
- No cgb in ranged mode.
- Suffering any direct damage returns you to close range combat mode.
The shinobi can perform a variety of actions in ranged mode:
- He can throw ranged lights that are 500ms and enchanced (not stopped on block), they deal 17 damage on hit. Parrying it pulls the shinobi to close range, where he is suspectible for the normal light parry punishes and returns to Close Combat mode after that.
- He can throw ranged heavies that deal 25 damage and are 800ms. They do not grant executions. They are feintable, and if R2 was held, the shinobi stays in Ranged Mode. Parrying it pulls the shinobi in and out of Ranged Mode, and he can't defend against normal heavy parry punishas. Heavies are softfeintable into Ranged Guardbreak during the feint window, with the same rewards (with the decreased damage on his normal heavies, which is only 2 less but worth mentioning), if it is countered, the shinobi is pulled in for a heavy parry punish and out from ranged mode. Ranged guardbreak, like normal guardbreaks, tracks dodges and bounces off from everything but the original target. Ranged guardbreak now only works as a softfeint, the neutral version is removed to give a bit more warning for the target if coming from behind.
- The shinobi has an infinite chain with both lights and heavies in Ranged Mode.
- After throwing a ranged heavy or light against a target that is either hit or blocked, the shinobi can choose any time during his ranged infinite to leave ranged mode by performing a ranged zone. Ranged zone is considered a heavy, hits the target from either the left or right depending on the chosen direction, is 700ms while it hits the main target, deals 30 damage on contact, and in the next 800ms, the shinobi makes a full 360 attack with it, hitting everything around himself (still blockable for other players, who clearly see the indicator, but leaves them in a short block stun and forces them back a bit). This attack grants a heavy parry punish, has the radius of the ranged heavy, and the attack is made with both scythes unleashed (mainly for open space group fights to make some distance). It is important to note, it won't work with target switch, at least one attack has to be used against the main target with the main target either blocking it or taking the hit (it works on officers as main targets, but they operate in tighter spaces- unlike the commander and the guardian). You hit your allies, too, and walls stop the route of the zone. You can only use this ability if you have a target you can lock on to, can't be used against minions only. After the first 700ms, this move has hyperarmor.
- After a succesful ranged attack (either hit or block), you can still roll the salto kick, for either a 20 damage salto kick (the stamina damage part is removed), 500ms close range light finisher, or 800ms undodgable close heavy finisher into the sickle rain. If you choose the kick, you can immediately backflip if you hit your target, but stay there and take a 800ms recovery on miss.
Entering range mode:
- You can enter from neutral by holding your heavy. However, if you enter this way, you immediately lose your guard, your ability to cgb and your ability to take any action for 700ms (goodbye, optionselect charge). Beating this way of entering is 100% possible if the shinobi is close. If the shinobi is not in close range but within dash attack range, it is more a read than reaction, so the shinobi can never safely do it. It is only good if the shinobi wants to enter a fight and wishes to start in ranged mode.
- Every kick (excluding the missed salto kick) or backflip recovery can immedietaly canceled into ranged mode (with a 400ms delay before any action can be taken).
- Double dodge recoveries can be canceled into ranged mode.
- Guardbreak throw will fastlow you into Ranged mode.
- You can use shurriken throws from both close and from range mode, and you can immedietely fastflow into range mode after shurriken throw.
Leaving range mode:
- Ranged zone returns you to close combat mode.
- Rolling in for the salto kick mixup after a ranged heavy returns you to close range combat.
- Taking a hit from any attack (excluding minions), melee or feat returns you to close range combat.
- Becoming exhausted or being countered in any way returns you to close range combat.
- If you do not press heavy again immediately after letting it go, your ranged heavy ends the infinite chain and returns you to close range combat.
Other:
Yama Uba only heals the shinobi if he injured a hero or officer with the attack (this includes block damage as well).
What are your opinions?
Senior Member
What I forgot to add, the kick could be sped up to the speed of Warlord's headbutt to make it a bit less reactable. The smoke may even hide the first frames from double dodge, since it is only 15 damage now like the rest.
And the ranged zone would instantly give back full control once it ends to prevent the original target getting in a free hit.
Member
Originally Posted by Goat_of_Vermund Go to original post
It is nice to see that even a Non-Shinobi player who hates the Shinobi as much as you do, can still give an honest acknowledgement that this nerf was unjustly excessive. As someone who just retired from being a Rep 28 Shinobi because of this nerf hammer, I plan to provide a more detailed response to your recommendations after I have had a chance to analyze it more thoroughly.
Senior Member
This looks pretty fair.
Shinobi would loose his charged option select and does less dmg but would get a better flow.
I really like 2 ideas which are the bash doing dmg themselves instead of a follow up and also the range zone would be pretty cool!
Thx Goat for writting this despite your Shinobi hate ^^
I am not a Shinobi main at all considering i have 12 reps with him and i am reps 210 overall (ps4+pc) but i am defending him atm because this was sold as changes in order to "makes them more competitive" and that was maybe true for Roch and Nobu but not Shinobi at all.
I just like to play him sometimes but im not sure i will keep doing it now.
You and Raime have posted 2 nice rework ideas for him.. Raime like a month ago or more already but the team just decide to not give a **** about Shinobi and just over nerfed him.
Member
Member
Yeah seriously, this is the kind of severe nerf that just makes players want to uninstall the game because it's so unbalanced.Originally Posted by TheUberDome Go to original post
Member
Nice post. But don't waste your time. If they come with such crappy "reworks" you just know these people don't know their game and their players. And if they even don't know that, they are definitely not gonna read the forums. I have to say people like Valoredramack have allot of patience. Ubisoft treats players as **** and thats why their playerbase keeps shrinking. In fact allot of ex-players I know have left the game because of those crappy reworks, e.g. lawbringer, raider, warlord, cent etc. etc. Did they ever fix single one of them no never, while allot of people have posted allot of proper reworks.
They overnerf or overbuff a class and than come with crappy half done **** updates expecting players to stay.
I've never ever seen a game that is already released and is getting so many and drastic "balancing" changes than this game. Balancing is something that should've been done in beta or early-access. And oke if they do balance it should be something small, but they do such drastic changes which destroy complete classes, that allot of people uninstall the game.
Senior Member
Senior Member
Since there are quite a lot of posts from shinobi mains in the recent posts (lol, they are really good in this hiding stuff, always though they are rare), I would really like to get some feedback for this.
Or an other rework plan, I either missed it, or those posts were all about leaving the game and no rework suggestion. Since the Testing Grounds is a thing now, I can't think about a better time to share rework plans (as you will see from the at least 5 different pk related topics I will start until the end of the summer)
