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  1. #21
    NATural22cHANce's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Luckydevil_010 Go to original post
    It also depends on your definition of competition. Siege is just not competitive. Competitive implies fair and even playing field but between exploits and general glitches that is not present. .
    So because there's bugs in the game they shouldn't make balancing changes? And more specifically, they shouldn't base those changes off the highest level of play, because us plebs have to deal with glitches/exploits?

    Does anyone remember shield-glitching windows? Does anyone know why that was finally removed? Pro League. ESL decided to allow it (it had always been against the rules) and it was being used in every single game, so Ubi finally had to do something about it.
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  2. #22
    Originally Posted by NATural22cHANce Go to original post
    So because there's bugs in the game they shouldn't make balancing changes? And more specifically, they shouldn't base those changes off the highest level of play, because us plebs have to deal with glitches/exploits?

    Does anyone remember shield-glitching windows? Does anyone know why that was finally removed? Pro League. ESL decided to allow it (it had always been against the rules) and it was being used in every single game, so Ubi finally had to do something about it.
    Not the point i was making. Most ppls argument for using the top whatever percentage is that oh but siege is a competitive game. Im just pointing out that siege is compromised as a competitive game. So basing the majority of changes off of the top on that basis is skewed.
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  3. #23
    NATural22cHANce's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Luckydevil_010 Go to original post
    Not the point i was making. Most ppls argument for using the top whatever percentage is that oh but siege is a competitive game. Im just pointing out that siege is compromised as a competitive game. So basing the majority of changes off of the top on that basis is skewed.
    OK, then help me out here, because I'm struggling to see what point you are making.

    Are you trying to say that the people at the top get there because they abuse exploits/broken mechanics and therefore they aren't actually the best at the game? Or that they get to the top through mostly luck because the game is so broken that it's about as competitive as rock paper scissors? Or something else I haven't thought of?

    There's no sarcasm here, I'm genuinely asking.
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  4. #24
    Originally Posted by NATural22cHANce Go to original post
    OK, then help me out here, because I'm struggling to see what point you are making.

    Are you trying to say that the people at the top get there because they abuse exploits/broken mechanics and therefore they aren't actually the best at the game? Or that they get to the top through mostly luck because the game is so broken that it's about as competitive as rock paper scissors? Or something else I haven't thought of?

    There's no sarcasm here, I'm genuinely asking.
    Ok so the main arguement i always get for why they should balance around the top percentile is that siege is a competitive game. However that implies that the game is fair and even when siege is anythin but that. So my point that i made was that that argument is invalid at least imo. To me there should be separate builds between console and pc we honestly play seperate games and to me and i find it unfair that the game does not get balanced according to the strengths and weaknesses of console.
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  5. #25
    Originally Posted by Morfanos Go to original post
    Except that this whole argument/thread is based on the fact that the game is balanced around the top 20% of the players base, not just the pro. We're not just talking about a few hundreds people here(ESL players). I could see an argument made if only the best of the best were taken into consideration but that's not the case.
    Fair enough i was just responding to the game being competitive.

    The argument could be made that the game functions different on console than on pc yet we're beholden to a small group on pc. A good example is the pick/win chart. I can guarantee that blitz is up there where jackal is on console as hes banned almost every match ive played this season. Yet on the chart he's towards the low end of the spectrum. Since i give up on them actually doing the right thing in regards to separate builds i have to say its completely uneven that they dont take a wider variety into account.
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  6. #26
    Originally Posted by Luckydevil_010 Go to original post
    Fair enough i was just responding to the game being competitive.

    The argument could be made that the game functions different on console than on pc yet we're beholden to a small group on pc. A good example is the pick/win chart. I can guarantee that blitz is up there where jackal is on console as hes banned almost every match ive played this season. Yet on the chart he's towards the low end of the spectrum. Since i give up on them actually doing the right thing in regards to separate builds i have to say its completely uneven that they dont take a wider variety into account.
    To be fair a lot of the "elite" players on console are using M+K anyway, making them pretty similar to PC.
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  7. #27
    Idahou's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Raytheon... Go to original post
    So screw the 81.98% of us lower level scrubs that think otherwise and are forced to take the reaming of Pro League , Streamers and Sieges top tier players?
    High skill suggest deeper knowledge of game, its mechanics and ability to use tham as adventage in game. Thats why are data from this "level" valuable. Copper will play "just-for-fun" while diamong will sweat for win. Simply said if 9 from 10 diaonds will play certain operator only, its clear its overpowered operator, while if 9 from 10 coppers will play some operator, its possible they play it just because it seems cool
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  8. #28
    Originally Posted by DroneYoinker Go to original post
    Gonna play both sides:

    Why I support them using only Pro-League: I am always a skeptic when a game relies on a small portion, not to mention the ELITE portion of their community, to dictate or at least have a larger say in how the game is balanced and designed. That being said, given how they play the game and how much of it they play, well I can see why they would have that power. If the game wants to stay ESports ready, well the people that play ESports should be taken a little more seriously. They want the matches to be fair, they want the matches to be balanced, especially if they want to keep getting paid. I don't think anyone on this forum can deny that Pro Players have experiences that the large portion of the community have never experienced. They have intelligence that we don't have, no matter how many hours you've clocked, and I would assume they use that for good. They know the game inside and out, they test different operators and how well they work or don't work with other operators, at the end of the day they have broken down siege to a science.

    Not to mention... some of the ideas the Casual community can have are pretty f***ing stupid...

    Why I don't support them using only Pro-League: That's just it. They don't make up a large portion of the game. I get Siege is supposed to be competitive, but it almost feels like it is moving in a direction that will only be nice to players who are willing to sweat their hearts out. Ranked is now following Pro-League rules when it just felt better when it didn't. Seems like changes want to be made against Casual that will make it more Elitist than it is now. Plus it just gives a big middle finger to the people just trying to put in their two cents. Kinda seems like we treat the word of the pros so highly that anyone who disagrees with them is just some dumbf*** who doesn't know what he is talking about. But just like Casuals, the Pros can have some pretty dumb ideas too. To assume that because they are Pro, their words are right and true, is ignorant. It creates a sort of hive mind where people who "resist" against the Pro's word are attacked.

    Basically... there is no perfect decision here. Pros will make mistakes, Casuals will make mistakes. If Casuals influenced more than the pros, you can bet your a** we'd be here discussing "why the pros don't have a say in anything."
    People should just read this and nothing else ^^^
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  9. #29
    Mike_Oxuge's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Luckydevil_010 Go to original post
    Ok so the main arguement i always get for why they should balance around the top percentile is that siege is a competitive game. However that implies that the game is fair and even when siege is anythin but that. So my point that i made was that that argument is invalid at least imo. To me there should be separate builds between console and pc we honestly play seperate games and to me and i find it unfair that the game does not get balanced according to the strengths and weaknesses of console.
    You forgot the second half of the argument: Rainbow six siege is a competitive game and on the highest ranks you see the most out of the operators. Meaning the data is actually valid in those top ranks since they know how 2 play the operators. Also their picks are done in order to win while a trend i noticed getting myself out of silver and gold at the start is to only go 3 speed to get frags and run and gun. Coppers - Golds seem to also have no communication and also not react to it which basically makes for example clash useless. Besides that ubi also doesnt use this data exclusively otherwise clash and warden would have been buffed instead of an echo and jackal nerf.
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  10. #30
    Because the game has to be balanced at the highest level of play. Just as in any other game, sport, etc. You dont need copper-gold running any strats.
    This isn't actually true. You'd be surprised that a Copper Strat could easily throw off a Platinum Team who are used to playing one specific way, which if you watch the Pro-League, they have maybe 1 or 2 options in most attacking scenarios, because they're used to playing against the same strategies over and over and over again. Mixing it up is actually a good thing. It forces people to try different strategies they wouldn't normally try, and putting those strats into the hands of people who are have better mouse and aim control could easily make a team stumble in Pro-League. For the simple fact that it's not expected.

    Can anyone here name me 1 competitive video game , board game, sport, basically, anything that's being done on the competitive level... that is not balanced, modified or changed based on data gathered by looking at the best in their respective field?

    I'm not trolling anyone or trying to fight, I'm legitimately trying to find a single one and I'm unable to.

    They all can have different rules(that do not apply to the pro) made specifically for the casual players but the balance itself? Always come from the top.
    I'd say maybe a lot of Brawlers where damage output is dependant on your combos and ability to do combos. Not so much games based around aiming and shooting. Think Smash Bros or Tekken/Mortal Kombat. I'm not sure if it's the case, but those would be my guesses.

    You forgot the second half of the argument: Rainbow six siege is a competitive game and on the highest ranks you see the most out of the operators. Meaning the data is actually valid in those top ranks since they know how 2 play the operators. Also their picks are done in order to win while a trend i noticed getting myself out of silver and gold at the start is to only go 3 speed to get frags and run and gun. Coppers - Golds seem to also have no communication and also not react to it which basically makes for example clash useless. Besides that ubi also doesnt use this data exclusively otherwise clash and warden would have been buffed instead of an echo and jackal nerf.
    Whilst i sort of agree with you. The entire game has sort of turned into a TDM rather than the original tactical-wall-busting-shooter it started out and was designed as. With the implementation of all the new operators and weapons, in combination with the bugs and glitches and spawn peeks, the game is more of an all out brawl now than it ever has been. I remember back when ammo was limited to only a few spare magazines... because tactics was the whole point.
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