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Go play DIV1 then and wait few months or for XMAS when everything gonna be balanced as you wishOriginally Posted by Squirrelrabbit Go to original post
btw i think there is one or two specific games which should win biggest letdown of 2019 and DIV2 definetly isnt
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No content has to be available right out of character creation. That is certainly not what I am arguing. But all content needs to be available, accessible and rewarding as the game progresses.Originally Posted by Caraamon Go to original post
This means that it is absolutely fine that content is progression locked, requires certain in game prerequisite accomplishments or is more or too difficult for where you are in your individual progression...like your example here:
The huge significant difference is that TDB is accessible for everybody through the game in varying difficulties resulting from logical progression.Since you haven't mentioned it, I'm assuming you are okay other examples such as the Black Tusk content being gated behind the upper levels of World Tiers, so how is any different with the raid being gated with even more effort and/or time?
It is irrelevant whether it takes you 2 days and somebody else 40 days because of how many hours they play IF fe. the feeling of progression is proportional.
Every step necessary progresses your character towards being able to access and play the content and that progression results from the logical flow of playing the game. And as soon as you reach the prerequisites for that mission you can play it and attempt to finish it.
This is not the case with the raid. I can play all the hours I want, I can optimize my build to perfection all I want, and I can be as skillful all I can be....but I can't play the raid unless I go outside of the game and spend a significant proportion of time I should be playing the game just sitting there and looking for a team.
Each and every single time.
On top of that....the base difficulty is tailored entirely based on 1 single difficulty. Meaning that the content itself is already catering to a significant minority of players.
This offers a situation where, unlike TDB, people can not go in, fail, adjust and learn.
I never suggested a metric of "length of time". I said "respecting time investment".Is it a matter of time, such as everything should be available after 200 hours of play? Or would you suggest a different metric?
While that sometimes can come down to not having insanely lengthy grinds it goes far beyond that. And includes accessibility, feeling of (meaningful) progression towards a goal, as well as varying difficulties. In TD2 it certainly also has to do with variety in how you can approach content.
(Btw. The complaint about overly long protracted grinds is not just a casual complaint.)
And that works to all sides.
Not just "oww you want to make the game easier for casual n00bs". I think I adequately addressed in my original post...but given the amount of people intepreting my post saying "dont think in balancing two opposing groups but think of it in terms of offering content that caters to a varied player base" as some advocacy for "dumbing down"....it is obvious people missed the fact that this cuts both ways.
If you spend hundreds of hours in this game optimizing builds...you also want to have content available on a difficulty that reflects that. Meaning that the game should offer content where the optimized gear and skill can be challenged.
Right now the game does neither.
This is why I am not advocating based on time.The issue I see is whatever metric you use for full access, then the lifespan of the game ends not long after that. For example, if you can do everything after 200 hours of play, then what is left for people who play longer than 200 hours? There is only so much value you can get out of repeating the same missions/raids/etc without it working towards more content.
Of course the reverse is also true. If the game becomes unrewarding and requires a huge time investment just to make incredibly incremental progress (or none at all) or where the amount of progress has no bearing on whether you can even access content...or content has no relevance for progression....a game won't hold attention either. Even for a few months.
But I also feel you are touching on a meta argument of what is wrong with most live service games...and why most of these games fail. Aside from some glorious exceptions.
I think that is not an unreasonable concern. Although I think that is mainly for when a playerbase dwindles under a treshold...and it also entirely depends on the content as well as the game. It is certainly a remote possibility....but it also isn't that significant of a danger.Your idea of splitting out various difficulties sounds like an interesting compromise. But to be honest I worry that if easier versions are available, there will be a lack of people wanting to do the harder ones; that people will be satisfied with those easier versions and not push for the gear to beat the harder ones. And since it's a group activity, if there aren't sufficient people to go, then it means I can't go either.
Evidence is the difficulty of regular missions in this game. Eventhough missions include a normal difficulty setting...I have less difficulty MM-ing into hard and challenging missions than normal difficulty missions. I also have less issues with MM-ing heroic content...eventhough there is very little motivation to play it attm. That is obviously annecdotal evidence but judging from similar statements all over the forums and reddit...it certainly isn't unique.
With the inclusion of Heroic raids in Destiny for example a majority of people moved to heroic raids. When they upgraded the Vanilla raids to Y3 difficulty...people spend a ton of time replaying that content rather than the lower difficulty.
With the addition of casual raid difficulty in WoW people didn't stop playing the higher difficulty versions of them. In fact it could even be argued (although opinions are certainly varied) that hard core raiding benefitted.
But if even if the argument was an established natural and automatic fact (which I don't think it is) it also has implications for the veracity of arguments for maintaining difficulty gated content.
If so few people are interested in playing difficult content that it becomes inaccessible and effectively unplayable then....obviously one should ask whether the demand for such content is sufficient to justify dedicating a significant chunck of content at that difficulty for inclusion in the game.
I am certainly an advocate for varying difficulty settings....as long as they offer proportional and relevant rewards.
But I don't necessarilly think that lowering difficulty is the only way to make content more accessible. And even if you wanted to maintain difficulty there are other dials that could be adjusted before we tinker with lowering difficulty....such as in game LFG or MM...and adjusting RNG....expanding viable build diversity...introducing viable and diverse roles.
Maybe some will. But a lot of people just want to play the raid content.This could be offset by making the harder raid more rewarding, but if it's rewarding enough to warrant the full investment of practice and gear builds, won't people feel like they don't have full access if they don't go?
In this particular instance I am questioning the wisdom of the entire reward system in Td2. I think it is extremely inadequate. And as a result locking rewards behind hard core content that is far from easily accessible becomes much more of an issue.
Especially since gear is universal.
This is where other games like Destiny and WoW made better choices since raid gear predominatly makes a difference in that activity and gives much less or no advantages outside of it.
But that is details.
A lackluster reward system is also why nobody was particularly impressed by exotic drops in elite content. Lets face it...for everybody...the reward system attm is really, really bad.
Regardless I think a more pressing issue imo is that it feels much more excluding to not be able to play the raid at all rather than not being able to get the gear.
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Only people who fail English class think the Dev's are doing a good job...especially since Division 1 was so good, how could they have possibly screwed up so bad the 2nd time around. Seems to be a trend with all Dev's these days! Just look at Destiny 2, Black Ops 4, and Battlefield 5 ...its disgusting and its an embarrassment to the gaming community. Put a little pride in your work and see it through to the end before you put a product on the shelf and expect people to buy it. Imagine if you saw a commercial for a brand new car...and when you went to the dealership it had 3 wheels, no windows, one door, and warranty that says "We'll fix it when we feel like it"
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I absolutely Agree with you. Wonderfully said! They have taken away all good stuffs from Div 1 and gave us the worst things!Originally Posted by ScottyV550 Go to original post
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Ahhh, okay, I think we've been arguing different points here.Originally Posted by BOSS_TPH76 Go to original post
If I understand what you're writing, your issue is mainly about systems (not difficulty) excluding people, such as the lack of raid matchmaking. I don't disagree with you there.
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At the risk of derailing this discussion, I had a thought while reading through your response:
This game seems to be trying to be two different genres of games:
1) a single player game with some co-op features and consistent small updates/DLCs
2) a mostly offline MMO
It seems like many of the style complaints are based on this. Those who want one get annoyed at the traits of the other.
Which is not to say there aren't massive issues but I think at least some of them derive from trying to be two things at once.
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Originally Posted by ScottyV550 Go to original post
Wow, did you know, not everyone was Born in ENG/US speaking country and only way how i could learn english was from the games and with dictionary - cuz in that time, there wasnt any google. I dont think so. Honestly you just embarrasing yourself showing your arogance/ignorance to someone who wants feedback his opinion about game (in some way, yea sometimes with bad gram but still undrestadable) which is decent in those Grab money Traps days which you mentioned.
I AGREE with you about those FAIL companies/Devs but only people who still believe DEVS manage those things like when release a game and what kind of transaction put there etc. are naive and always fall into Grab cash Trap cuz those kind of things LEAD - Wall Street and investors dude = We Want money and we dont care whats gonna happen those DEVS/Company cuz we gonna find another way make more money somewhere else
and you ACT like Typical DIV1 "fan-boi" player which wants everything as in DIV1 then gonna cry about how its copy pasted game with no improvements etc. etc.
so pls
Senior Member
I think the biggest problem is that they're trying to be two things at once, but a different two things than what you said. I think it's more about trying to please the more hardcore players who want exclusive rewards and tougher content, while trying to please the more casual players who want more normal content, and don't like high end gear locked behind top difficulty content.Originally Posted by Caraamon Go to original post
If they focus on hardcore players, the casual players feel left out and leave, but if they focus on casual players, then the hardcore players get bored and leave.
The developers need to make a decision on what direction the game should go though, because it's just not a great game for either side right now.
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From a casual player standpoint -
I don't mind content being hard, or getting harder by the time. That's what's exciting for me about this game. At some point, when the AI was rushing you and do all those melee's my only complaint was that the melee was doing too much damage.
Again, I don't mind that the grind needs to happen to get stronger, that you might go to DZ, or do the raid which is, let's be honest, pretty challenging - at least at the beginning.
My most problematic issue is that the fact they are locking away the means to do it - eg: raid mm - why do I have to go to websites and discord channels to meet people as random as I can get using the mm system in the game? Just to visit the Discord Channel from the devs or from a content creators? I used this option 5 times and I never managed to complete the raid with those guys.
Another issue where they are taking things from you - the RNG. It's been several months since lunch and, imo, its getting worse. I feel like some attributes are pointless or the min max values of the attributes is so big, that the chances to get something you will enjoy are very slim - for ex, my biggest DTE on a mask is 33% and I have seen 45% as being the cap or smth like that. That is no fun since in my over 250 hours of playing I didn't get to be close to that.
Developers - hmmm, I think the devs are doing a good job, the game is not that buggy considering all the mechanics and all the content in it. Let's be honest. The game is huge, freaking huge. I accept bugs since, again, imo, they are fixing them soon enough. The problem here is with the exploits in pvp which sometimes are killing the experience. The problem I think is with the people who are coming up with the actual decisions, the leads - I feel like they are looking to the content posted here, they get an idea and they twist it to the point where things feel like moving in the wrong direction. When they say the community is great and blah blah - I can see all the people posting and debating, but the game is not moving towards a common goal. The Div 2 should not be a re-write of Div 1, we should embrace new mechanics and new ideas, but things need to get smoother, not lengthier, nerfed or other things which make the common player feel smaller and smaller. There are a lot of promises from their side that I would look forward to see them brought to fruition, but I am not holding my breath.
In my opinion, the game has great mechanics in theory, they just need to polish them. Content difficulty and loot availability should be priority. Balancing gear should come close 3rd. Hope I was not off topic and I didn't insult anyone.
Have a great night everyone! Cheers and enjoy the game that can be the greatest of them all.
