1. #11
    Originally Posted by Iscarikret Go to original post
    You are biased, he isn't balanced in terms of moveset, maybe too turtly, maybe with lack of strong offence, but overall he is strong, I don't know why you don't see it.
    I agree wtih Siegfried-Z, if he is trash then who is Orochi, Valkyria, Kensei, Gladiator, Centurion? Are LB even to them?
    I know that these heroes are below LB, but that doesn't turn him into a good hero. The ones you called indeed need to get buffed, but LB too. I don't know if you watched the 3 streams at E3, where they just played the event mode for an hour ... there was a LB pro (DaddyLaw) and he basically got buttkicked combat-wise (not talking about objective win/lose). I think that was pretty eye opening and confirmative to what we are saying.
    Share this post

  2. #12
    I think what OP said was really great, he should get shove soft feints in order to put more pressure and that stupid idea with "150 hp dude being able to be valk" is stupid, their kits are no where near the same
    Share this post

  3. #13
    Originally Posted by Illyrian_King Go to original post
    I know that these heroes are below LB, but that doesn't turn him into a good hero. The ones you called indeed need to get buffed, but LB too. I don't know if you watched the 3 streams at E3, where they just played the event mode for an hour ... there was a LB pro (DaddyLaw) and he basically got buttkicked combat-wise (not talking about objective win/lose). I think that was pretty eye opening and confirmative to what we are saying.
    If he isn't a good hero, then who is good hero? Who is above him? I think only S-Tier hero and arguably not even all. Shaman better than him? Nuxia? JJ better turtle? No, are they trashes too? In your logic they are. Stop divide characters into black and white, if character need buffs or moveset rebalance that doesn't mean he is trash. DaddyLaw isn't an argument for me, I have my own experience in 4v4 even custom high level games and 4v4 tier list, in 4v4 LB is quite strong, just tell me why not? He isn't good midder? He isn't ok teamfighter? He isn't strong ganker? He can't stand long in 1v2 situations?
    Share this post

  4. #14
    Originally Posted by Iscarikret Go to original post
    If he isn't a good hero, then who is good hero? Who is above him? I think only S-Tier hero and arguably not even all. Shaman better than him? Nuxia? JJ better turtle? No, are they trashes too? In your logic they are. Stop divide characters into black and white, if character need buffs or moveset rebalance that doesn't mean he is trash. DaddyLaw isn't an argument for me, I have my own experience in 4v4 even custom high level games and 4v4 tier list, in 4v4 LB is quite strong, just tell me why not? He isn't good midder? He isn't ok teamfighter? He isn't strong ganker? He can't stand long in 1v2 situations?
    Who is above him? ^^

    Vortiger (WAY better defense and also offense), Conq, Raider, Warden, Zerker, Shaolin and maybe pretty likely even JJ.
    I never called Nuxia, JJ or Shaman trash. In my mind they are even slightly stronger the LB, because they have more or less viable offense, while having many other benefits.
    JJ has 150HP same as LB combined with his hidden stance (great defensive tool)
    Shaman can heal on bite and with basic attacks on bleed, while having a well rounded moveset
    Nuxia has her traps and pretty unreactable lights.

    I don't know how you come up with this idea, but a hero's ability to turtle is not the only argument to determine his power level. It is one shade of many that make a picture all together.

    Also if you neglect my point about DaddyLaw in the Tournament, you don't really help your argumentation. You always keep defending LB as "fine" (for the VERY least), while actual LB MAINS disagree with you. Now there was a Tournament with an ACTUAL PRO, and he could't properly help himself. Who should give a damn about you personal experience then? You are not a pro!
    In the Tournament DaddyLaw made the one or other kill/assist in ganks, but lost most 1vs1. And he is a really good fighter. An actual pro.
    It proves exactly what we are saying! He is decent in ganks, but worthless in 1vs1. You can turtle as much as you want ... you won't take down a whole bunch of other heroes, if played well.
    Share this post

  5. #15
    Originally Posted by Illyrian_King Go to original post
    Who is above him? ^^

    Vortiger (WAY better defense and also offense), Conq, Raider, Warden, Zerker, Shaolin and maybe pretty likely even JJ.
    I never called Nuxia, JJ or Shaman trash. In my mind they are even slightly stronger the LB, because they have more or less viable offense, while having many other benefits.
    JJ has 150HP same as LB combined with his hidden stance (great defensive tool)
    Shaman can heal on bite and with basic attacks on bleed, while having a well rounded moveset
    Nuxia has her traps and pretty unreactable lights.

    I don't know how you come up with this idea, but a hero's ability to turtle is not the only argument to determine his power level. It is one shade of many that make a picture all together.

    Also if you neglect my point about DaddyLaw in the Tournament, you don't really help your argumentation. You always keep defending LB as "fine" (for the VERY least), while actual LB MAINS disagree with you. Now there was a Tournament with an ACTUAL PRO, and he could't properly help himself. Who should give a damn about you personal experience then? You are not a pro!
    In the Tournament DaddyLaw made the one or other kill/assist in ganks, but lost most 1vs1. And he is a really good fighter. An actual pro.
    It proves exactly what we are saying! He is decent in ganks, but worthless in 1vs1. You can turtle as much as you want ... you won't take down a whole bunch of other heroes, if played well.
    Vortiger, ok, better in offence, I can agree, in defence, arguably not, he has a stance, but has no zone option select and has lower punishes, but ok, I can agree that Vort can be better, not for too much, but better, maybe. Conq and Warden? Yeah. Zerker? Arguably not, moreover on high high level, when people can react to 400ms lights, Zerk need to do 4 light attack to deal damage more than one light parry, plus difference in 30hp, ok, maybe Zerk slightly better than LB, but please realize their positions, Zerk is S-Tier, 1st or 2nd stronger duel character in the game, you are trying to compare him with LB when nobody call him S-Tier now. Raider? Arguably not, LB do light in block, gain hp lead, what can do Raider? Stunning tap doesn't work on high level (I think we talk about it) or too risky, Raider by and large (even not on high level) has only chain zone attack to attack, but LB has zone option select, top light to interrupt everything and strong punishes and he can gain more hp lead from punishes, it is equal match-up, LB has all chances, Raider isn't stronger than him. Shaolin?! What a joke? He is no doubt weaker than LB, LB has too much hp and too big punishes, Shaolin had very unsafe offence which hidden behind heavies, Shaolin will just die first. Shaman and Nuxia for LB maybe equal match-up, but not better, like with Shaolin, LB has big hp and big punishes, he can just win them on their own offence. JJ as a turtle good too, but he doesn't outclass LB in everything, far from everything, at least in terms of punishes, also, which is really big weakness of JJ, he can't punish bashes on reaction, when LB can.

    I know that heroes strong not only because they are cool turtles, but if character can deal avarage more damage by counter-attacks than opponent can deal by his offence, I think it is strong and can be compensation for lack fo strong offence.

    Why DaddyLaw is ACTUAL PRO? I thought he is streamer, all streamers are pro now? Did he play tournaments? I don't see him in top tier teams. Maybe he is decent player, but he isn't apro. If you call DaddyLaw ACTUAL PRO so why can't I call myself an ACTUAL PRO?
    Man, are you joking now? 1v1 is the very last thing in 4v4, people usualy do teamfights only so character ability to fight 1v1 usually worthless, REAL ACTUAL PRO (to which DaddyLaw doesn't belong) running and rolling if they can't win in 1v1, that is mean you can play on Cent and just running away from Conq on the point being bad 1v1 hero and when you are Conq people can run and roll out of you, both situations shows that your 1v1 potential doesn't mean a lot, and as I said, 1v1s are rare, especially on high level, teamfight potenital the most meaningful thing, just look at Nobu, JJ and Shinobi, all of them had offence worse than LB, but all of them are 4v4 S-Tiers and REAL ACTUAL PRO pick them always on high level, despite the fact you can eternaly turtle against them.
    Share this post

  6. #16
    So, I'm on two minds about LB right now, as someone who mains him. The rework has really improved his viability in a one on one but you are right that he is still lacking any real offensive tools. He has no reliable opener (lights really easy to handle/read once you know the timings/mentality behind using them, shove has a huge telegraph now and a nasty punish window, heavies.. just no.) and no real trading tools (no uninterruptables except the shove which only guarentees a light, never worth the trade unless you have already dropped them low enough for it to be lethal)

    He is built around defence, which as someone who enjoys the style this is fine by itself. The issue comes from most of the game rewarding offence far more than defence, this being why raider's current broken state is so glaringly obvious and talked about. When all-out offence with soft feints and hyper armoured chains get the best results, any class not built around that is going to suffer while the current meta holds. Ubi actually got something right there by changing OOS mechanics, they actually resolved one of the issues that makes full offence so viable. They just need to give a little more love to the defensive classes. (and obviously deal with raider)

    My other mind is I'm winning far more than 50% of the time with LB, but thats more to do with how he clicks for me, he suits my playstyle almost perfectly though ik I'm in the tiny minority on that part. Most people I know still consider him a trash pick. I'm suprised anyone would argue he is truely viable yet, and I wouldn't mind him being changed away from my preferred style if it ment LB was enjoyable and viable for the majority,
    Share this post

  7. #17
    Originally Posted by AlphawolfyUP Go to original post
    So, I'm on two minds about LB right now, as someone who mains him. The rework has really improved his viability in a one on one but you are right that he is still lacking any real offensive tools. He has no reliable opener (lights really easy to handle/read once you know the timings/mentality behind using them, shove has a huge telegraph now and a nasty punish window, heavies.. just no.) and no real trading tools (no uninterruptables except the shove which only guarentees a light, never worth the trade unless you have already dropped them low enough for it to be lethal)

    He is built around defence, which as someone who enjoys the style this is fine by itself. The issue comes from most of the game rewarding offence far more than defence, this being why raider's current broken state is so glaringly obvious and talked about. When all-out offence with soft feints and hyper armoured chains get the best results, any class not built around that is going to suffer while the current meta holds. Ubi actually got something right there by changing OOS mechanics, they actually resolved one of the issues that makes full offence so viable. They just need to give a little more love to the defensive classes. (and obviously deal with raider)

    My other mind is I'm winning far more than 50% of the time with LB, but thats more to do with how he clicks for me, he suits my playstyle almost perfectly though ik I'm in the tiny minority on that part. Most people I know still consider him a trash pick. I'm suprised anyone would argue he is truely viable yet, and I wouldn't mind him being changed away from my preferred style if it ment LB was enjoyable and viable for the majority,
    Considering attempting to interrupt him externally can lead to a 40 or 50 damage punish pretty often he's dang scary to try to attack. He's got quick enough attacks of his own to interrupt and a semi solid mid chain mix up. Considering you can shove after an unblockable finisher it means you can reaction punish people who side dodge. But even though there are ways to punish a back dodge on read for LB his finisher mix ups are still semi lacking.

    He's viable in the sense that he's a very strong turtle. Which admittingly doesn't matter too much to the majority of the players in this game because most put far more value in things that can be safely spammed. But against actual competent players in higher level play LB is VERY viable.
    Share this post

  8. #18
    What I would give him is hyperarmor on all heavy finishers, lighting him out of it seems to be completely safe even with 500ms, let alone other 400ms. I would also give him hyperarmored longarm softfeints from heavies (not the finisher). On the other hand, his top light opener shouldn't be 400ms, make that one 500ms too.
    Share this post

  9. #19
    UbiInsulin's Avatar Community Manager
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    6,264
    Originally Posted by AlphawolfyUP Go to original post
    So, I'm on two minds about LB right now, as someone who mains him. The rework has really improved his viability in a one on one but you are right that he is still lacking any real offensive tools. He has no reliable opener (lights really easy to handle/read once you know the timings/mentality behind using them, shove has a huge telegraph now and a nasty punish window, heavies.. just no.) and no real trading tools (no uninterruptables except the shove which only guarentees a light, never worth the trade unless you have already dropped them low enough for it to be lethal)

    He is built around defence, which as someone who enjoys the style this is fine by itself. The issue comes from most of the game rewarding offence far more than defence, this being why raider's current broken state is so glaringly obvious and talked about. When all-out offence with soft feints and hyper armoured chains get the best results, any class not built around that is going to suffer while the current meta holds. Ubi actually got something right there by changing OOS mechanics, they actually resolved one of the issues that makes full offence so viable. They just need to give a little more love to the defensive classes. (and obviously deal with raider)

    My other mind is I'm winning far more than 50% of the time with LB, but thats more to do with how he clicks for me, he suits my playstyle almost perfectly though ik I'm in the tiny minority on that part. Most people I know still consider him a trash pick. I'm suprised anyone would argue he is truely viable yet, and I wouldn't mind him being changed away from my preferred style if it ment LB was enjoyable and viable for the majority,
    How would you further change defensive classes? This is interesting to me because I would say this suggestion sort of goes against the grain.
    Share this post

  10. #20
    Originally Posted by UbiInsulin Go to original post
    How would you further change defensive classes? This is interesting to me because I would say this suggestion sort of goes against the grain.
    It's a difficult issue to solve without being too heavy-handed or simplistic over it I think, I can give you what I feel some defence based classes are lacking though. For LB and Nobu, it feels like they have no way of forcing their opponent to act. They have no method with which to apply pressure on the opponent. The hardest fight for a defence based class to win is against an opponent who understands this, because they will just make safe pokes/feints without ever commiting to something I could counter. While in duels/brawls this is less of an issue because you can just be patient, in objective based modes this becomes a huge issue.

    Trying to carry a Breach game as the attacker with LB for example is impossible because the defender can just turtle and waste your time. They know you have no real openers and they also know if they don't give you a way in they can force you into making a bad choice based on the clock. With offence based classes this isn't a problem, even against a defence class defender because right now all-out offence is king. Without a way of harrassing the opponent, they will never feel the need to take a risk, LB's new lights solve that at the lower skill levels but once you are higher up they become parry fodder.

    Nobushi suffers the same problem but more severely, all of her openers are very easy to read, her lights are terrible, her kick is so easy to read and avoid that you will never land one vs a high skill opponent, hidden stance is a downright OP defensive tool but that doesn't matter when you are facing someone who knows to play slow and safe. Defensive classes are next to worthless on any Attacker objective, but Offensive classes have no such issue with being on the Defender team, this to me shows a clear problem with how they are designed or how the game mode is. So while I can't see a way objective based maps could be changed, its clear to me that defensive based classes need to be.

    That's just covering openers and the stalemate issue, when it comes to trading in contextless combat (for the sake of an example lets just use duels) they run into a new set of issues. LB has no trading tools bar his shove, which as I said before only guarentees a light, so shoving to get a hit is never a good trade of damage. All of his actual attacks are interruptable despite the heavies being very slow and easy to read/parry. His finisher, while good for baiting OOS parry attempts, is not much use outside of that, so while LB has a huge amount of potential damage, it is rare any of it actually lands.

    While I have said before I don't like simply giving everyone hyper armour as to me that seems a little lazy and simplistic, right now short of adding new mechanics, I don't see any other way of making LB chains viable without giving some parts of them hyper armour. Compare this to raider (simply because he is the most prominent issue right now) Raider has soft feintable openers which prevent people just trying to dodge or light into them (ST feint lands faster than most classes light) and hyper armoured chain heavies which completely outrade any assassin's dodge-strike or any classes counter attack. And this is coming from a class who can open up with an unblockable heavy, while a class like LB only has a threat like that at the end of his chain, a chain that requires a heavy beforehand, and can only be hard feinted.

    Nobushi is harder to fix I think, but from what I hear she is being reworked anyway so I think its best to wait and see how that goes.Ultimately, defensive classes at the moment have to purely rely on unforced errors, because they have no real way to force their opponent to take a risk, solve that one issue and the rest of their kit would become vastly more viable.

    As an edit at the end, I have only referrenced Nobushi and LB because they are the two I am most familiar with, and I know there are others with their own issues but I feel like someone who mains them would probably do them more justice than I ever could, and only using nobu and LB makes for a much shorter read.
    Share this post