1. #191
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    OMG, this whole time whenever I saw "Sniper" I always pictured the first-person ones. My bad! lol I will definitely look into those.
    Many people confuse these two franchises, haha. Hope you'll enjoy them !

    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    For me there are pros and cons to dogs as enemies. The biggest con is that I never want to hurt one. If there's a sleepy-time option (like, drugged food or something) maybe, but otherwise I just end up really, really unhappy.
    I do like that they bring another element to gameplay, but I need more options in dealing with them. Moving faster isn't something I can do reliably, and I NEVER want to shoot them, so...dog sections in most games are bad for me. Well, unless they're like the Presidential Palace where you could hide in the fountain until they got bored and went away.
    I agree with having more options to deal with dogs. Players tend to use sticky shockers to quickly get rid of dogs if they can't hide or avoid them, which is not that fun nor challenging. Being able to drug food would be a nice option, or having a specific gadget using pheromones able to calm dogs or modify their behaviour, which could lead to some funny scenarios. Or another type of gadget that could hide Sam's smell for a small amount of time. Or just being nice with the dog and trying to find food, taking it with us and putting it somewhere else in order to disctract the dog and in this way make everyone happy

    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    For me tension just comes so much easier when there are big consequences. I understand that some people don't like it, but I really like when a character has weaknesses. It fits well with stealth, and it's more immersive if I like the character and feel responsible for them. Some of my favorite sections have the character *really* weak - hurt and with no weapons or anything. I get so invested, and immersed...good stuff.
    I'm not saying it should always be like that (though honestly, if I made a stealth game, it probably would be like that...physically weak character, no real weapons, just a good amount of diversion options and a lot of noodle usage lol).
    Exactly. If there's no tension and no huge risks to take in a game supposed to be about stealth then to me it won't be fun to play. And the hero weakness definitely contributes into installing that good tension. Just like having a slow pace and a small inventory in horror games helps to install tension.
    To me those characteristics are intrinsic to these genres and essential, otherwise they're not real stealth games or real horror games anymore. And sadly we've seen that happen too often during this last decade because of publishers wanting to appeal to a bigger audience containing a lot of players who are either really bad at stealth, either don't have patience for this type of games, or want the character to be as strong as in any typical action/shooter game so they can play the game the way they have always been used to.
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  2. #192
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    A developer gameplay overview for Aragami 2 :

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  3. #193
    Originally Posted by LuckyBide Go to original post
    Many people confuse these two franchises, haha. Hope you'll enjoy them !
    I think I will! lol

    I agree with having more options to deal with dogs. Players tend to use sticky shockers to quickly get rid of dogs if they can't hide or avoid them, which is not that fun nor challenging. Being able to drug food would be a nice option, or having a specific gadget using pheromones able to calm dogs or modify their behaviour, which could lead to some funny scenarios. Or another type of gadget that could hide Sam's smell for a small amount of time. Or just being nice with the dog and trying to find food, taking it with us and putting it somewhere else in order to disctract the dog and in this way make everyone happy
    Yeah, a scent distraction item could work well, too. I just need to not have to hurt one. I know they might kill me if they could, but it's not their fault. Any time I hear a yelp I feel SO bad, and it's all I will remember. The section could be amazing otherwise, but if a dog gets hurt, I will hate it.

    Exactly. If there's no tension and no huge risks to take in a game supposed to be about stealth then to me it won't be fun to play. And the hero weakness definitely contributes into installing that good tension. Just like having a slow pace and a small inventory in horror games helps to install tension.
    To me those characteristics are intrinsic to these genres and essential, otherwise they're not real stealth games or real horror games anymore. And sadly we've seen that happen too often during this last decade because of publishers wanting to appeal to a bigger audience containing a lot of players who are either really bad at stealth, either don't have patience for this type of games, or want the character to be as strong as in any typical action/shooter game so they can play the game the way they have always been used to.
    I feel like we're just not seeing much in that vein from bigger developers these days. There are some good indie horror options, but I'm not aware of any recent light and shadow stealth games. Stealth "elements" are basically everywhere, but they're usually so watered down, and only usable in specific parts of a game.
    I find myself going more for the horror options these days because at least then they often have a "weak" main character. The Medium had some stealth sections that worked pretty well. It's mostly basic line-of-sight stuff, but the game was fairly serious about it; since you can't fight, being detected was bad news. Still, not at all a substitute for a real stealth game.
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  4. #194
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by CoastalGirl Go to original post
    I feel like we're just not seeing much in that vein from bigger developers these days. There are some good indie horror options, but I'm not aware of any recent light and shadow stealth games. Stealth "elements" are basically everywhere, but they're usually so watered down, and only usable in specific parts of a game.
    I find myself going more for the horror options these days because at least then they often have a "weak" main character. The Medium had some stealth sections that worked pretty well. It's mostly basic line-of-sight stuff, but the game was fairly serious about it; since you can't fight, being detected was bad news. Still, not at all a substitute for a real stealth game.
    I agree. A lot of games allow players to shoot lights but in reality it doesn't really change something to the AI and how it reacts. Real games using light & shadow system are rare.
    But I recently discovered that game called Delightfyl taking inspiration from Thief and using light & shadow system: https://filly-the-owl.itch.io/delight-stealth
    The game is still in devleopment but there's a demo available. It's not perfect and a new version of the demo is coming, but I had fun playing it and it's quite promising.
    Sadly I hate horror games, I can't play them because of how scary they are haha.
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  5. #195
    Originally Posted by LuckyBide Go to original post
    I agree. A lot of games allow players to shoot lights but in reality it doesn't really change something to the AI and how it reacts. Real games using light & shadow system are rare.
    But I recently discovered that game called Delightfyl taking inspiration from Thief and using light & shadow system: https://filly-the-owl.itch.io/delight-stealth
    The game is still in devleopment but there's a demo available. It's not perfect and a new version of the demo is coming, but I had fun playing it and it's quite promising.
    I haven't tried that one yet, but I like that their shadow system looks more sophisticated. It seems more like a fan project, but still cool. Wish it wasn't first person, but that's Thief.

    Sadly I hate horror games, I can't play them because of how scary they are haha.
    Aw, I respect that. I love a good psychological horror game, though. Not the "kill all the zombies" types, but the slow build ones in cool, creepy environments. Basically anything Bloober Team has made. They're so unsettling, but in a good way. lol
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  6. #196
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    Yeah Delightfyl can be considered as a fan project, and it's developed by one person. However it's an impressive job for only one developer.

    Horror games are frustrating compared to stealth games. You can't really outsmart your enemies, you just have to run and praying for your life
    I hate zombie games, I always see these games as a way for developers to not work on AI at all, or almost not.
    I never played a Bloober Team game, but I played a bit of Alien Isolation and the atmosphere was awesome. Though some of the gameplay mechanics and level design were meh.

    PS: sorry I can't quote, I'm on mobile ^^
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  7. #197
    Originally Posted by LuckyBide Go to original post
    Yeah Delightfyl can be considered as a fan project, and it's developed by one person. However it's an impressive job for only one developer.
    Absolutely! I'm always impressed when I see a solo project, especially one that's well-rounded.

    Horror games are frustrating compared to stealth games. You can't really outsmart your enemies, you just have to run and praying for your life
    Some are like that, but these days a lot are using stealth elements. Sneaking and hiding are much more common, which is nice, though it's usually basic line-of-sight with hide spots.

    I never played a Bloober Team game, but I played a bit of Alien Isolation and the atmosphere was awesome. Though some of the gameplay mechanics and level design were meh.
    I liked Alien Isolation. I could have done with even less combat (I know the flame thrower is cool and all, but I like hard difficulty in stealth, not combat lol). The environments make sense given it's Alien, but I wouldn't have minded them going a little more sandboxy with it, at least in some areas.
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  8. #198
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    Yeah, nowadays games using stealth elements do it very basically. Covers and locations to hide are very obvious and don't feel natural, they are killing the challenge and they're here to make the player thinks he has stealth skills.

    As I said I played only a bit of Alien Isolation but I remember having to go back and forth in the station and that annoys me. From what I played, I didn't enjoy the level design that much.

    Talking about horror makes me think about the third game in the Thief series : Deadly Shadows. There's a mission in an abandoned asylum/orphenage which is very scary, they made a perfect mix of stealth and horror in that mission. I recommend you playing it if you didn't, I'm sure you'll love it.
    By the way the entire game is also playable in third person view and it works nicely.
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  9. #199
    Originally Posted by LuckyBide Go to original post
    Yeah, nowadays games using stealth elements do it very basically. Covers and locations to hide are very obvious and don't feel natural, they are killing the challenge and they're here to make the player thinks he has stealth skills.
    But it really only works if the player doesn't realize it. We do, because we're actual stealth players and notice these things, but the rest...they're probably happy having their ego boosted. That was one of the big things in Conviction - changing over from the slow and punishing (aka "boring" lol) stealth to something that makes players feel uber.

    As I said I played only a bit of Alien Isolation but I remember having to go back and forth in the station and that annoys me. From what I played, I didn't enjoy the level design that much.
    There's definitely more linearity than we typically see these days. In some ways it works; it makes sense given the location, and it's more tense when you're really boxed in with the alien, but I would have been happy with more options.

    Talking about horror makes me think about the third game in the Thief series : Deadly Shadows. There's a mission in an abandoned asylum/orphenage which is very scary, they made a perfect mix of stealth and horror in that mission. I recommend you playing it if you didn't, I'm sure you'll love it.
    By the way the entire game is also playable in third person view and it works nicely.
    I love Deadly Shadows! lol It was actually one of the first stealth games I played, and I spent a ton of time in it. I went with third person, of course. Imagine my disappointment when I then went back and tried the first two and was stuck in first person... Ew.
    That game really helped get me into the genre, though. Manhunt was another one. I didn't know much about the gameplay before I got it, but obviously when it came out everyone was talking about it. I was already into horror games, so I tried it and really liked it. The gore was...ehhh...but the tension was superb. Having to sneak so closely behind enemies, waiting what seemed like forever for your kill to charge - so scary but so good. lol
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  10. #200
    LuckyBide's Avatar Senior Member
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    Yeah, we got lucky to be educated with great stealth games in an era where they were a bit popular and numerous, at least way way more than they are now.
    And it's a sad thing to see so many players who never tried real stealth games and getting misleaded by thinking that stealth is what they experience in their current AAA games.
    There are players who as you mention think that slow and punishing stealth is boring, but I'm sure there are a good amount of players who never played it and could potentially like it.

    I have nothing against linearity, in some games it's even better and it makes more sense to have linear levels. The problem in Alien Isolation is about the game forcing you to do long round trips. But maybe that problem was less present in the rest of the game.

    I can easily imagine how much you were disappointed by the first person in the previous Thief games, haha.
    So did you like that asylum/orphenage level in Deadly Shadows ?
    I never played Manhunt but have seen videos and it looks fun but too much of a sadistic experience, haha
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