Shinobi Is Far Too Weak and Punishable | Forums

[Valoredramack]

Dear developers,

I am a Rep 23 Shinobi and rapidly losing interest in this game because of how weak, vulnerable, and punishable this hero is. The Shinobi is practically unplayable because this hero is overly susceptible to punishment compared to any other hero.

He already has the lowest health in the game and he doesn't do that much damage either, so why are many of his moves deliberately more punishable than many other hero movesets? There are so many other powerful heroes that can kill a Shinobi in just a few hits like the Hitokiri, Aramusa, Highlander, etc. and yet the Shinobi has few options to survive even in a 1v1 fight.

Here are my TOP FIVE problems that I absolutely HATE about the Shinobi's current state:



1. DOUBLE DODGE IS EASILY COUNTERED.
PROBLEM:: Evasion is critical for a Shinobi's survival because of his severely low health and tiny blocking window. So why is it that whenever Shinobi uses a double dodge during a fight, he can be Guard Broken? There is absolutely no reason for the Shinobi to have such a weakness, I don't see any other hero getting guard broken while trying to dodge. The double dodge is also necessary in order to do the kick which is necessary for most of the Shinobi's combos, but since the double dodge can be guard broken so easily, it has the added penalty of ruining all of the Shinobi's mix-up combos which are already low damage output to begin with..

FIX: When Shinobi is double dodging in mist form, it should be uninterruptible or at the very least, not be susceptible to a Guard Break.



2. RANGED ATTACKS AND RANGED GUARD-BREAKS ARE USELESS IN A 1V1 FIGHT.


PROBLEM: The Shinobi long-range attack and ranged guard break are the easiest attacks in the game to counter in 1v1, but what bothers me most is that the ranged GB ends up dragging the Shinobi to the ground to be wailed on. Also, the long-range heavy attacks completely drains the Shinobi's stamina when parried. These extreme vulnerabilities are obviously implemented in order to discourage long-range fighting; I don't mind having a drawback to using these attacks....but the amount of punishment for using these ranged attacks is completely unreasonable. When the health pool of the Shinobi is already so low, it doesn't make sense to force the Shinobi player to the ground or drain all of the stamina for an easy kill....this is simply frustrating, takes all of the fun out of the game, and totally defeats the entire point of even having a long-ranged attack to begin with. It's almost like having a long ranged attack is a wasted skill slot, I would much rather have a top heavy attack and side heavy attack if you're just going to make his ranged attacks so unacceptably punishable that we can't even use it in a fight. It's a significant hindrance to have a controller button wasted on a nearly useless skill.

FIX: If you don't want the Shinobi to have long-ranged attacks, then please just remove it all-together and replace it with something that is actually useful. As it stands, the buttons for doing ranged attacks feels like pressing a self-detonate button, it's just a suicidal move because of how punishable it is. If you do want these attacks to be useful, then these skills should be a lot less punishment instead of ruining the player experience. There are plenty of heroes with far more threatening attacks than Shinobi's hooks and yet I don't see them getting punished to this extent when countered with a parry or getting dragged to the ground for free attacks.


3. EASILY COUNTERED BECAUSE THERE IS NO DODGE ATTACK OPTION.


PROBLEM: There are a lot of heroes that have a dodge attack and yet the hero which relies on dodging the most has NO dodge attack! Shinobi is easily countered by Orochi, Kensei, Berzerker, Tiandi, Jiang Jun, and Shaolin because they can attack while dodging. It makes no sense that the Shinobi has no dodge attack, especially when you consider the fact that he has the shortest hit range in the game when it comes to melee combat. We've already established that the long ranged attacks are useless because of how punishable it is in 1v1, so the only option is to fight up close in which the Shinobi is still extra vulnerable since he cannot double dodge without being vulnerable to guard breaks, he has no ability to attack while dodging, has a small health pool, and doesn't deliver that much damage.

FIX: Rework the Shinobi to add a Dodge Attack. The ability to dodge AND attack simultaneously like the Orochi and Kensei is even more necessary these days because there are so many heroes with "hyper armor" attacks which allow them to land an uninterruptible heavy blow on a Shinobi while ignoring being hit. The tactic that most players use against the Shinobi is to simply attack repeatedly and aggressively because the Shinobi does not have a good dodge, does not have a good block, does not have much health, and does not deliver much damage. The Shinobi CANNOT afford to trade hits with anyone because one mistake could get us killed, so we need more options for survival and less punishable movesets. As it stands, the Shinobi is so weak that during team battles, he is often the first person to get aggro ganked from opposing team. It is not uncommon for an enemy hero in Dominion to attack the Shinobi first whenever they have the opportunity because a Shinobi is significantly easier to kill due to the weaknesses I mentioned.


4. MOVESETS COST TOO MUCH STAMINA AND DO LITTLE DAMAGE.


PROBLEM: The Shinobi loses stamina much easier and faster than just about any other hero, not only from the extreme punishment of having a heavy attack parried but also because of the stamina cost for the Shinobi's movesets. In the unlikely event that a Shinobi successfully lands an advanced kick mix-up which is pretty easy for any experienced player to counter...the end result is that the Shinobi barely has enough stamina to even backflip away and the amount of damage done to the opponent is so laughably low compared to the movesets of other heroes that it's hardly worth even using the Shinobi combos other than to reduce an opponent's stamina or to push an opponent away.

FIX: Reduce the stamina cost for the Shinobi's kicks, backflips, and movesets so that the Shinobi player doesn't have to spend the entire game just doing hit and run light attacks.The kick mix-ups are already easily dodged by opponents so the current stamina cost isn't justified.



5. LACK OF CONSECUTIVE ATTACKS AND HIGHLY TELEGRAPHED HEAVY ATTACK.


PROBLEM. The Shinobi is limited to two consecutive attacks, which is pretty ridiculous for a hero that is supposed to be fast. It is helpful that the second light attack is guaranteed, but that small benefit doesn't compensate for the fact that heroes like Valkyrie and Aramusha can strike repeatedly and while doing a lot more damage; even the Orochi can swing at least three times. Additionally, the Shinobi has one of the slowest and most telegraphed heavy attacks in the game, which makes it almost impossible to land on any decent player without using a guard break. Since the Shinobi's heavy attacks are garbage, that only leaves the light attack for the majority of a Shinobi's attacks. The light attacks can land a few hits, but the inability to attack more than twice consecutively means that the Shinobi is still too easy to counter and punish. It's particularly frustrating since as I mentioned earlier, many heroes don't even get flinched or interrupted even when attacking them first, so they can afford to outright soak in the Shinobi's light attacks in exchange for their hyper armored heavy attacks.


Summary: The Shinobi is NOT a viable hero because of the ineffective movesets, low health pool, low damage, severely-punishable ranged attacks, and severely-punishable double dodge. The Shinobi is almost unplayable against heroes that can perform dodge attacks or heroes with uninterruptible attacks. For 23 Reps I have tried to compensate for this heroes failings, but I'm ready to acknowledge that the Shinobi has too many problems to ignore. Something needs to be done about this hero, the current state of the Shinobi is starting to make me hate this game.

As a Rep 23 Shinobi, I can say without a doubt that the only feasible tactic that is even remotely useful for the Shinobi in a 1v1 fight is to wait for an opponent to attack and then deflect it, mixed with light attacks here and there. Everything else in the Shinobi's kit and movesets are far too punishable and are not practical at all unless you're attacking an opponent that is already distracted in a battle with one of your allies.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

Yeah. The shinobi is sooo punishable.

[Valoredramack]

I also want to add that the Shinobi practically has no finishing moves even though he is an assassin.

The Shaman has their cannibalism attack which deals so much damage they can pretty much kill a Shinobi with that one move even with half the Shinobi's health still remaining and the Orochi has their storm rush attack.

Yet the Shinobi has pretty much ZERO high-powered assassin attacks, so it makes even less sense that this hero is so much more punishable than other heroes as if the Shinobi is really that big of a threat.

A Shaman is much more threatening than a Shinobi in a 1V1, this is not balanced at all. Even the Shinobi's light attack is slow enough to be disrupted by the light attack of an Aramusha and most other heroes since the Shinobi can only strike twice consecutively so there is an easy opening for other heroes to even counter the Shinobi's attack speed.

The Valkyrie attacks much faster than the Shinobi while also being able to attack more frequently and doing more damage, where is the balance?

If you have a Valkyrie and a Shinobi just light attack each other, the Valkyrie wins easily so that just goes to show that Shinobi's attack speed doesn't even compensate for his lack of damage because he cannot out-strike harder hitting heroes; his attacks are not fast enough if he can be struck preemptively which is why deflecting is the only way.

What is the justification for the Shinobi to be so insanely punishable and to have so many drawbacks that discourage players from using this hero in most matches?

The Shinobi requires either a serious buff or a serious rework.

Right now it feels like the only way to fight with a Shinobi in Dominion Mode is to attack only when you can get a guaranteed hit, such as after a deflect or while opponents are distracted fighting someone else. Because getting parried or dragged to the ground even one time is pretty much instant death, especially during a team fight. The maps are so small that even when you manage to do well in a 1v1 fight, a Shinobi is likely to get ambushed by an opponent's ally before finishing their 1v1 fight because there is no way for a Shinobi to kill an opponent quickly since our damage is so low and since our movesets contain no high-powered attacks like the Shaman has. So a Shinobi is not only extremely punishable, but we also severely limited in our attack options which forces us to prolong every 1v1 fight that we encounter.

At this point, when I don't think I can win, I try to sprint away because fighting with low health, low damage, and limited stamina is pointless when using a Shinobi. Any other hero has much better options for survival and making a comeback in a fight. 90% of the time, revenge mode for a Shinobi doesn't even trigger when outnumbered because the health pool is so low that the Shinobi can die quickly before even being able to active revenge when attacked by two or more heroes. Meanwhile, the majority of the more durable heroes can trigger Revenge Mode repeatedly in a single fight which is also really frustrating because revenge mode should at least have a cool down period..

[Meanpie13]

Shinobi just doesn't belong in For Honor. Fighting a Shinobi is extremely annoying because a good Shinobi abuses the safe moves that Shinobi has while staying out of range. The winner is the player who doesn't give up from boredom and start throwing riskier moves.

[chaneke1984]

Shinobi needs a change, yes, but to make him a good melee character, not the chioce for cowards that like to fight from afar.

[Valoredramack]

AmonDarkGod, if you're baiting enemies with a long range GB then you're either fighting in a lower tier skill or you don't actually play Shinobi and just saying nonsense. Higher skill players are familiar with those tactics because the Shinobi has more limited movesets and combos. Furthermore, my major complaint with the Long Range GB is that it is overly punishable for a hero with an already low health pool so your reply has nothing to do with what I am even talking about. The Shinobi is not only pulled to the ground, but he has an insanely long recovery time to get back to the feet, this is what I mean by overly punishable.

[Valoredramack]

Shinobi needs a change, yes, but to make him a good melee character, not the chioce for cowards that like to fight from afar.

The only reason why people fight from afar is because the Shinobi has ineffective movesets and combos.. If they made him better in melee combat, then more players will use him that way. That's just the nature of gaming, players will use whichever tactics are most effective and avoid what is most punishable. Furthermore, the Shinobi's long range attacks are so easily countered and punishable that this shouldn't even be a concern for you. Most experienced Shinobis don't even use long range attacks in a 1v1 because it's more dangerous for us than it is for our opponent if we get parried or countered.

[Valoredramack]

Shinobi just doesn't belong in For Honor. Fighting a Shinobi is extremely annoying because a good Shinobi abuses the safe moves that Shinobi has while staying out of range. The winner is the player who doesn't give up from boredom and start throwing riskier moves.

What safe movies are you talking about exactly? If you're struggling against a Shinobi then it probably has more to do with your skill level than anything else. The Shinobi does not have safe moves, my first posts just explained why he is so easily punishable and countered. If you think the Shinobi has a safe move to abuse, then perhaps you should explain what it is because as a Rep 23 Shinobi main I can honestly say that I have no idea what you are even talking about. I can explain in accurate detail why the Shinobi has no safe moves and instead has a lot of punishable moves.