Member
Why does he need Changing?
- Too much damage (24 damage lights, 40 damage heavies, 50 damage deflect, 59 damage sickle rain)
- Too safe (backflip is infuriating)
- No offence (double dodge kick is reactable, lights and heavies don't chain into anything worth while)
- Poor flow (you don't chain offence because all the followup options bar the guaranteed light attack don't really do anything)
What are my Ideas?
- Giving him proper offence (partially returning the old and creating new mixups)
- Nerfing defence (mostly backflip and zone to allow for reasonable punishes on new offence)
- Encourage continuing chains (followup from a Basic or Ranged Heavy Attacks), also improving flow
- Reducing damage (but still above average due to his low HP)
- Some quality of life changes
General Changes:
Guard duration increased to 1000ms (from 700ms)
Charged Heavy:
Add a minimum time to hold the Heavy Attack button before it can be charged (no more extremely safe parry option select), also return the quadruple+ dash to the way it was (QoL. It's weird how it changed in one of the recent patches to where you have to match your guard in the direction you double dodged in order to do it again, rather than being able to chain them back to back no matter where your guard direction was).
Zone Attack:
Remove the bash immunity on 2nd-3rd hit (a strange unspecified quality of the move that adds further safety to the option select)
Light Attacks:
Basic Light Attack damage reduced to 11 (from 14)
Guaranteed Light Attack damage reduced to 6 (from 10)
Heavy Attacks:
Basic Heavy Attack damage reduced to 28 (from 30), speed increased to 800ms (from 900ms)
Heavy Attack Finisher is now undodgeable (this will come into play later), damage reduced to 25 (from 35)
Teleport Kick:
Stagger duration reduced to not allow any follow-up Ranged Heavy Attack to hit, no longer knocks down while in revenge (this was fixed for most of the cast AGES ago so cc moves wouldn't knock down during revenge, but strangely shinobi's deflect kick kept the property)
Ranged Guardbreak:
No longer goes through revenge, add an external indicator
Sickle Rain:
Stamina damage reduced to 15 (from 33), Light damage reduced to 1+1 bleed, 1+1 bleed, 1+4 bleed (from 2+4 bleed each), give it the Lawbringer Impale and Raider Stampede Charge treatment by removing the uninterruptible stance (reduces instakill ganking potential. Changes would make it deal a total of 34 damage rather than 59)
Double Dodge Kick:
Forward Kick speed increased to 400ms (from 500ms), hyper armour duration changed to 200-400ms (from 300-500ms), block recovery lengthened by 200ms (so most dodge attacks hit when evaded on orange. This is one half of his double dodge kick mixup)
Double Dodge Light:
Changed to Single Dodge Light
Double Dodge Heavy:
Now is a Heavy Attack Finisher (the other half. Creates a Kick/Sickle Rain mixup from a double dodge. Not the same as his old double dodge kick/gb, but similar. I prefer characters to actually throw out the occasional attack as part of a mixup rather than adding more bash/GB shenanigans)
Crushing Front Roll:
As above, but for real this time (strangely does different damage to his regular Heavy Attack Finisher. This is one half of his Forward Dodge Roll/Basic Heavy Attack mixup)
Backflip:
Can ONLY Backflip after a Light Attack (from Light Attack, Heavy Attack and Kick/Front Roll Kick. This means that Kick and Front Roll Kick now give the opponent a free GB if dodged on prediction, and give players a clear window on when to punish him, rather than falling to the Backflip and getting GB'd)
Front Roll Kick:
Stamina damage reduced to 10 (from 47), knockback distance reduced, on hit it chains into a GUARANTEED Basic Light Attack, can now be used after a blocked, hit or whiffed Basic Heavy Attack (the other half. Creates a Front Roll Kick/Sickle Rain mixup after a Front Roll or Basic Heavy Attack, encouraging him to follow through after a blocked Basic Heavy Attack or landed Ranged Heavy Attack)
Spider Silk Whip:
Chained Heavy Attack has Heavy Attack properties (from Light Attack properties), no longer guarantees a GB on block (Basic Ranged Heavy Attacks should still be stopped on block otherwise Shinobi could dictate the pace of the fight at range worse than he does already, which goes against what ideas I'm trying to suggest in this rework)
Shadow Strike:
Damage reduced to 9+10 bleed (from 14+15 bleed)
Banned
Member
The problem with shinobi is his defence is too strong, and his offence is too weak, what im trying to suggest is moving power away from his backflip and into his kicks and chains.He needs his damage reduced, its just way too high right now.
H=heavy, L=light, FRK=front roll kick, K=kick, SR=sickle rain, DD=double dodge, FR=front roll, RH=ranged heavy
What I'm suggesting is a way to improve his chains, eg:
H>FRK>L
H>H>SR (undodgeable)
This is a 50/50, either you try to dodge the kick or wait for the heavy, getting caught by the heavy or kick respectively if you choose incorrectly.
DD>K>RH
DD>H (undodgeable)>SR
This is another 50/50 for the same reason.
FR>FRK>L
FR>H (undodgeable)>SR
And another one.
This actually incentivises him to use his chains and previously useless moves rather than not following on from a ranged or basic heavy attack. Here is his entire list of USEFUL chains he can use with my idea:
DD>K>RH>FR>FRK>L
DD>K>RH>FR>SR
DD>H>SR
H>FRK>L
H>H>SR
H (on-hit)>L (guaranteed)
L (on-hit)>L (guaranteed)
All of these chains end in a light, allowing him to backflip afterwards resetting to neutral for another double dodge or basic heavy. I don't know about you, but that looks like a ton of flow to me. He cannot backflip DURING these chains (except for L>L) giving the opponent a clear window to punish the shinobi if they dodge any of your kicks or parry your undodgeable heavies, reducing his safety.
His perks are mostly pretty good, bar some of the offensive ones. That deserves its own topic considering it doesn't just affect the shinobi but other characters as well.
Member
Seems like a huge nerf. Here are my thoughts:
I don't actually really mind the Shinobi playstyle. Shinobi is his own thing, which is good. What he DOESN'T need is any hyper armor. The backflip is really safe and a player can disengage from a fight at any time, controlling the pace of the fight. Heroes like WL or Ara, who don't have dodge attacks, can't attack or GB after dodging the kick, as the Shinobi can backflip out and possibly range GB WL or Ara if they whiffs GBs. Their options are then limited.
The problem I see is players need to play pretty technical against Shinobi and Shinobi can just play safe. Against an experienced Shinobi, most of the other character's movsets become negated in some way, which probably isn't a good thing.
I suppose I don't mind the damage values Shinobi has, he does have the lowest amount of health in the game and is the most maneuverable character in the game. But I do think backflip spamming and disengaging is pretty annoying and too controlling. I don't blame them though, they don't have too many offensive tools to work with. The character was aimed to be super dodgy and unintentionally annoying, so I'm not sure if that'll ever change without actually taking that uniqueness away.
Member
Check the Backflip section of the rework, it specifically suggests that you CANNOT backflip after either of his kicks, meaning that characters like WL and Ara CAN punish him if they dodge it.
The problem with not having hyper armour on his kicks and backflip is that his feet leave the ground AND he's at a really weird angle during those moves. How bonkers would he look readjusting himself if he got hit? I guess he could have iframes during the backflip instead.
Member
I think it is good idea, but I disagree with damage nerf and such gank nerf.
To start with, ranged gb was never passed through revenge, it was guaranteed in same situations like simple gb, in recovery for example. Adding an external indicator will make it useless against good players. I think the best way is make it like all new ganks, like HL's grab (the developers themselves cited this as an example of how they want to see ganks in the game, and I agree with them, one-shot gank sucks) or like Shugoki. It must be, for example, 40dmg 2nd heavy from Shinobi and one guaranteed heavy from the ally then gank interrupted.
About damage, Shinobi is counter-attacker, he must has big damage, the problem was his option selects and big safety, damage should stay. He should be like Lawbringer, big risk - big reward, slightly lower punishes and low hp compensated by strong iniciation.
