Why Warden is a stronger than Raider and he deserves a nerf more than Raider | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

While I agree with the overall theme of Warden being stronger than Raider I don't agree with your decision to nerf him over raider. I'll touch on your points:

1) It's disingenuous to compare Warden's fully charged SB to raider's mix up. You'd have to be comparing the whole mix up of SB versus the whole mix up of raider post stunning tap. By only focusing on the fully charged version of the SB you're purposely stacking the cards for warden's side to make it look clearly better. Further more you're completely leaving out warden's choices in this initial bullet. You do not always start an SB looking to hit a full charge or going for a full charge. This entire first bullet is just misrepresenting the situation and thus I cannot argue into it.

The point of warden being able to feint his bash when he starts moving is always an overstated upside. In a battle between two high skilled and evenly skilled players this is never a talking point because you almost never get to that point. Once your opponent has recognized that you prefer charging to see if the opponent miss dodges they will start attacking you in start up of your charge. Which warden can't feint to parry on reaction especially since the opponent could option select from neutral.

Yes Warden can catch early dodges with a bash, on read. Raider can also soft feint to either a GB or stunning tap again. Stunning tap itself having a varied timing depending on input. It's entirely possible to avoid his repeated soft feints. Just as it's entirely possible to dodge into unlock roll to avoid an early dodge punish against warden. You can debate on which one is harder to avoid.

Actually you can't zone option select his heavy/chained zone mix up because Raider gets HA 100ms into his chained heavies. Further more Raider has always been able to feint on a read to block 400ms neutrals and parry 500ms neutrals. You can't use avoid/counter interchangebly here as it again skews the argument. Further more Warden's SB games have both character specific and universal counters. Saying you can only dodge his mix up is entirely false and really hurts your credibility in the argument. As for the damage goes Warden typically nets double side lights for his mix ups, side heavy via GB if he read well. You rarely get 40 damage. Compared to Raider netting stunning taps 18 damage and a successful chained attack hitting between 58-68 damage. Or on the lower end with soft feint into GB netting 38 damage total. This doesn't consider the fact that his mix up effectively cuts all aggression against him due to the 20% set cap or potential OOS punishes of which raider does more damage with over Warden any day.


2) I see what you're attempting here but i'm going to scrap it entirely and work from the external perspective since that's what this section seems to mainly focus on. In 4's you're constantly blocking or dodging. Dodging more than blocking because block hitstuns can setup ganks. While Warden's SB from external can only be dealt with by dodging both raider and warden can essentially force a dodge from neutral anyway since they both have an unblockable from neutral. Raider's zone can be soft feinted into a GB. Meaning if he's ganking with someone else just like a warden would do they are essentially ganking the same way.

I'd argue that not being able to block warden's bash isn't a significant advantage to make it better over zone into soft feint for raider. Because baiting a parry out is incredibly strong for ganking punishes. And bashes give more revenge on average compared to practically anything else in the game. Using zone as a mix up is more costly stamina wise compared to constantly charging and feinting Warden's bash. But imho it's not a big enough of a difference to really say one situation is superior to another. Finally, you could argue that warden is slightly more threatening from neutral on the offensive side and i'd agree. But raider has dodge into GB as a defensive option. Meaning any AoE move you attempt to do when being ganked can be met with a stampede charge wasting potential revenge time post activation or a wall throw that nets Raider a heafty chunk of damage. More so if he's positioned with allies to also net a heavy with his.


3) Raider's soft feint always comes out at 400ms so i'm not sure on what you mean by "he has to GB late." Warden's GB has no better tracking compared to any other GB. GB's always track if the opponent inputted a dodge too early. And because early dodges is primarily how Warden catches people it seems like it's different when it's really not.

4) Both heros have comparable range to their mix ups. Raider's is slightly better if we only consider warden's uncharged bashes. (which are important to note because they're his primary tool for punishing people on side dodge.) Pretty much the rest of this part is already mentioned in prior parts so I don't need to respond to them again.


5)Strictly false. If you GB warden at all during dodge into Sb you're either catching him in dodge start up or SB start up. Raider is 100% immune to being GBed on his dodges wether he gets his timing wrong or not. And you can punish warden's side dodge into uncharged SB with a read by baiting it and GBing him on whiff. The only way you can punish a raider who's using side dodge to attempt to GB you is to feint and throw a light. But because raider can literally just not commit to attempting the GB you can't force that punish. So Raider is safe. Warden is not.



Conclusion: Warden is stronger offensively. Raider is stronger defensively. We play for honor, the game that doesn't give a flying heck about offense and massively rewards defense. Warden is the better hero overall but is kept in check with proper risk vs reward punishes. The only actual balance problem with Warden is back dodge into SB. Raider on the other hand gets Armor 100ms into his 40 damage heavies making any trade in the game in his favor barring a couple niche scenarios. His dodge into GB/CGB means any hero who relies on bash based offense is instantly a hard match up VS raider. ESPECIALLY since dodging bashes is easier to do on reaction thanks to the increase of I frames that happened awhile ago. And on top of that Raider boasts one of the best if not THE best stamina bullying to OOS punishes in the game.

No. Raider NEEDS to be adjusted.

[LightUpTheEyes]

Raider definitely needs toned down, but Warden needs a complete rework altogether.

High level play against Warden for the most part turns into a game of luck. Like going to the casino, sometimes you'll make a correct read and other times you won't. He'll be even worse when they nerf the disengage tactics. Although a good Warden will just cancel Midway through and catch you with his dashing heavy. You can say "just throw a lite when he charges up" however this does not work when facing a Warden who knows how to properly use spacing.

Warden shouldn't only rely on shoulder bashing. He needs other options that are skill based and not luck.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

I think guessing is not really luck, it's more like understanding how your opponent thinks. And every time you guess correctly, you get a serious reward. After dodging any bash, you get a guardbreak. If he thinks you will roll and you won't, it's a free heavy parry on the dash heavy. If you are close, you might get a light. If you throw a heavy and he goes in for a light parry, you get a heavy. Raider has far more generous risk/reward game during offense, even if you play an opponent who can parry the stunning taps, which is a full read. Raider's stamina drain should be significantly nerfed, his dodge gb removed, and maybe some numbers toned down. Warden, however, doesn't really need much, you can't touch the shoulderbash without significantly nerfing him.

[Zombie.Face]

warden bash u can just dodge roll out of. raider u can't. raider is way stronger than warden. as a valk both are much stronger than me so they both feel like s++ tier.

funny that the ubi guy asks for your opinion on what could be done with both. LOL!! we've said so so so so so much that can be done with ****ing nothing done!! why bait us ubi man! so we can feel better about thinking the devs are listening to us? its ******ed to keep asking us for feedback when they literally don't use it dude!! its so damn annoying!! placating the **** out of us here..

then if we keep saying our feedback were told to stop posting about it.. so do we give feedback or no? will it do a damn thing or no? so far no. so maybe quit asking us what we think the devs can do to change them. we both know its going in one ear and out the other. its so annoying at this point. so frustrating and annoying. there are over 100 posts on ideas that the raider can change to be balanced so why u asking this guy his opinion? u need over 500 before ubi can act? sorry I'm being a **** head but its just comical at this point u know. I'm sure your just doing your job as ubi says to keep the peace with the forums. I think this is actually your job, not to relay feedback. :/ yes I'm angry and pissed... sorry to be a baby rage!

[LightUpTheEyes]

I think guessing is not really luck, it's more like understanding how your opponent thinks. And every time you guess correctly, you get a serious reward. After dodging any bash, you get a guardbreak. If he thinks you will roll and you won't, it's a free heavy parry on the dash heavy. If you are close, you might get a light. If you throw a heavy and he goes in for a light parry, you get a heavy. Raider has far more generous risk/reward game during offense, even if you play an opponent who can parry the stunning taps, which is a full read. Raider's stamina drain should be significantly nerfed, his dodge gb removed, and maybe some numbers toned down. Warden, however, doesn't really need much, you can't touch the shoulderbash without significantly nerfing him.

Guessing is luck, sure you make a correct read, but that's still guessing. No character should be based around guessing.

If Warden thinks you're gonna roll, but you don't. Well it doesn't matter too much because if you don't roll you'll get hit with the level 3 sb for a top heavy.

I agree with everything about Raider, he's super overturned and needs number turned down.

[Vakris_One]

Guessing is luck, sure you make a correct read, but that's still guessing. No character should be based around guessing.

If Warden thinks you're gonna roll, but you don't. Well it doesn't matter too much because if you don't roll you'll get hit with the level 3 sb for a top heavy.

I agree with everything about Raider, he's super overturned and needs number turned down.

There is such a thing as reading your opponent's patterns during the fight and then making educated guesses on their next move. That's not down to luck, that's using insight to anticipate an expected outcome based on pattern recognition.

Warden has to make reads as well in order to land SB. It's not as black and white as saying his opponent has to make guesses but the Warden doesn't. Both players have to try and figure each other's patterns out.

Is Warden's offense focused too much around his shoulder bash? Yes. But prediction based offense is here to stay because you can't run a fighting game on reaction based combat alone. The important part about balancing this is in making it so that each character has an unreactable or mind game option in their kit. But crucially, one move should not be doing everything like Raider's stun tap (damage, stamina drain, daze, unreactable).

These moves need to be a tool that helps you to create openings for your offense, rather than being the be all and end all of your entire offense. Unfortunately this is something the devs have yet to make a consistent effort on.

[LightUpTheEyes]

There is such a thing as reading your opponent's patterns during the fight and then making educated guesses on their next move. That's not down to luck, that's using insight to anticipate an expected outcome based on pattern recognition.

Warden has to make reads as well in order to land SB. It's not as black and white as saying his opponent has to make guesses but the Warden doesn't. Both players have to try and figure each other's patterns out.

Is Warden's offense focused too much around his shoulder bash? Yes. But prediction based offense is here to stay because you can't run a fighting game on reaction based combat alone. The important part about balancing this is in making it so that each character has an unreactable or mind game option in their kit. But crucially, one move should not be doing everything like Raider's stun tap (damage, stamina drain, daze, unreactable).

These moves need to be a tool that helps you to create openings for your offense, rather than being the be all and end all of your entire offense. Unfortunately this is something the devs have yet to make a consistent effort on.

Yes, their is such a thing as reading your opponents patters, however with Warden he's always the aggressor forcing his opponent to constantly be guessing what the Warden is going to do. Players change their patterns mid fight (I do this all the time). Warden is pretty cut and dry. Now if Warden couldn't cancel his Sb then he would have to make a read, however since he can just cancel it, he simply has to wait for his opponent to mess up. With proper spacing Warden can consistently charge and cancel his Sb risk free and just bait out a reaction. This is why he has always annoyed me as a character.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

I fought lots of wardens, and he is not always the aggressor. He has avarege stamina management and no drain on stamina, he needs to deal with everything just like everyone else. His punishes are also normal, you take avarage risk when you attack him. Like 30 damage if you are guardbroken. Compare it to raider, who drains all your stamina and starts a 50/50 that one hits you on the incorrect guess.

Changing patterns is a relatively high level thing, in which you forcefully fight against a habbit of yours, so reading it is of course just as high level, and the more rounds you fight, the less luck it involves- some patterns must remain on both sides, and ideally the one concealing his and understanding the enemy better wins. This is why Black Prior has frustrated so many people, because he has attacks that work even if you are dead sure he will use them.

[LightUpTheEyes]

I fought lots of wardens, and he is not always the aggressor. He has avarege stamina management and no drain on stamina, he needs to deal with everything just like everyone else. His punishes are also normal, you take avarage risk when you attack him. Like 30 damage if you are guardbroken. Compare it to raider, who drains all your stamina and starts a 50/50 that one hits you on the incorrect guess.

Changing patterns is a relatively high level thing, in which you forcefully fight against a habbit of yours, so reading it is of course just as high level, and the more rounds you fight, the less luck it involves- some patterns must remain on both sides, and ideally the one concealing his and understanding the enemy better wins. This is why Black Prior has frustrated so many people, because he has attacks that work even if you are dead sure he will use them.

I'm not arguing that Warden is worse than raider. I'm saying Warden needs a rework because his kit is dumb. Wardens that know how to play are always the aggressor. I mean sure you'll go against someone who is passive, but overall Warden doesn't have to throw out an unsafe attack at all. They just have to sb and cancel and whatnot