Why Warden is a stronger than Raider and he deserves a nerf more than Raider | Forums

[Liduras]

Their mixups and defensive moves are actually very similar, except Warden is better. Before you say "a bash mixup can't be similar to a feintable unblockable heavy/zone mixup and Raider's dodge GB is unique", let me explain.

First, lets start with their offence (Raider's heavy/zone mixup vs Warden's SB):

1. Warden's fully charged SB and letting Raider's heavy/zone hit are very similar. Except for these differences:
   
   • Rider needs to choose between making that attact unblockable(but parryable) or hyperarmored, but Warden's fully charged SB is always unblockable+unparryable+hyperarmored.
   • The feint windows of Raider's heavy and zone ends before they hit, but Warden can feint his SB even after moving.
   • Warden's SB can catch an early dodge with it's extremely high range and tracking, but Raider's zone/heavy can be avoided with an early dodge.
   • Raider's heavy/zone can be countered with a zone parry option select and it can also be dodged, but the only way to avoid Warden SB is dodging.
   • Raider deals a little higher damage.
   
   
2. Warden's noncharged and partially charged SB are very similar to Raider's feint into stunning tap:
   
   • They are both 18 damage 400 ms attacks with approximately same timing.
   • Raider's stunning tap always comes from top and it is blockable(useless against external blocking), but Warden's SB is a bash and can only be dodged.
   • Stunning tap can be parried on reaction, but Warden's SB is completely unreactable.
   • Even if your reaction is slow, you can keep your guard top untill the parry timing of Raider's heavy/zone to make his early stunning tap useless, but you need to guess Warden's SB timing correctly.
   • Raider's stunning tap stuns(useless at high level) and drains more stamina.
   • Warden's SB has much longer range.
   
   
3. Warden's hard feint into GB and Raider's soft feint ino GB are almost same:
   
   • Raider needs to GB late, otherwise it can be counter GBed on reaction. But Warden's feint into GB can work with every timing.
   • They can both catch early dodges. Warden can feint after he starts moving to do a magnet GB, and Raider can use his forward dash GB after a hard feint.
   • Their GB punishes are close.
   
   
4. Other differences and similarities:
   
   • Warden can dodge into SB, but Raider needs to get close to use his mixup.
   • Both of them can infinitely chain their mixups.
   • Most of Raider's mixup can be countered with moves like top superior block lights, zone parries,...etc. But Warden's SB mixup can only be dodged.
   • Every type of defence (block, parry, dodge, hyperarmor, deflect, crushing counter,...etc.) works against Raider's mixup.
   • Warden can catch rolls much better than Raider with his super fast heatseeking roll catcher.
   • Raider deals a little higher damage, but Warden's SB is much safer and has a lower risk/reward ratio.
   
   

Now, lets compare their defences (Raider's dodge GB vs Warden's side dodge into SB):

• Both of them can prevent a GB during dodge or dodge recovery. Raider counter GBs during his dodge/dodge recovery and deals no damage, but Warden can prevent a GB during his dodge/dodge recovery with the instant GB invulnerability of his SB and deals 18 damage.
• When they are used as a counter, Raider deals higher damage.
• When raider dodges a little late, his oppenent can counter GB and Raider deals no damage. But when Warden uses his side dodge SB a little late, he can still use his unfair 33/33/33 luck game.
• Both of them are almost unpunishable when they are used as counter attacks.

Conculusion: Warden can do almost everything Raider can do better than him. Raider's only advantages are a little higher damage, stamina drain of stunning tap and his stun. Ubi should either nerf both of them or not nerf them.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

This is the most biased bs I have seen in the forum for a while. There is nothing even remotely close to how broken the raider is. The "little higher damage" is 25% more at least, the stamina drain is complete stamina deletion on the first gb he gets, the stunning tap is pk's best move but it chains, deals double damage and stuns. And he gets a guardbreak on anything succesfully dodged, for 40+ damage and the full stamina bar- his dodge is also completely safe from guarbreak at the same time. Just people who happen to main him think he is fine, and only the dumber ones.

[SpaceJim12]

Sure, Warden is stronger then Raider. Yeees. That's why it only Raiders right now across the game modes. Raider, Hitokiri, Shugo and assassins time to time.

[Liduras]

There is nothing even remotely close to how broken the raider is.

Excep for Warden

The "little higher damage" is 25% more at least,

Warden deals 40 damage with fully charged SB. Raider deals 28 damage with zone, 40 damage with side heavy opener, 50 damage with chained zone and 35 damage with chained side heavy. The only time he deals "25% higher damage" is with the chained zone. His other options deal same or lower damage. Warden deals 30 damage with GB and 40 damage with GB into wallsplat. Raider deals 28 damage with GB without a wall, 43 with a stampede charge into zone, and 45 with GB throw into wallsplat. No, Raider's average damage is not "25% higher". Also, the chance Warden deals damage with his SB is atleast 2 times higher than the chance he takes damage, while the chance Raider takes damage is approximately same as the chance he deals damage.

the stamina drain is complete stamina deletion on the first gb he gets,

It reduces the stamina to 20%. Just counter GB to avoid the "complete stamina deletion". Although it is OP, it is nothing compared to what Warden can do.

the stunning tap is pk's best move

It is also a weaker version of Warden's level 1-2 shoulderbash. Both of them are 18 damage 400 ms attacks that can be used 300+ ms after their mixup starts. Except, the stunning tab is a blockable and reactable top light attack.

And he gets a guardbreak on anything succesfully dodged, for 40+ damage and the full stamina bar- his dodge is also completely safe from guarbreak at the same time.

You need to dodge early enough to geat a guaranteed GB with Raider. He can still be GBed at the earlier part of his dodge. Warden can also prevent a feint into GB, but he also deals damage. Their only difference is that Raider deals more damage on a succesfull dodge.

Just people who happen to main him think he is fine, and only the dumber ones.

"Just people who happen to main him think he is fine", this is true for both Warden and Raider mains. No, i don't defend Raider. I am only saying that Warden is even more broken than Raider and Warden should be nerfed with Raider.

You and some others are only complaining about Raider because you are used to Warden and Raider's rework happened a short time ago.

[Siegfried-Z]

This is very bias.

You forgot the main thing.

As strong as is Warden kit, everything he does can be react to.
Raider ST mostly requires prédiction to punish it or always guard top to defend against because of how fast it is. And if it lands the following light is almost guaranteed unless you're lucky and block on the right side.

But yes, both are s tier. This is true

[MrB3NX]

Warden is pain indeed

but try going full blind against Raider's stuns , you'll hate yourself .

[Star.Princess]

Very biased and subjective.

[Liduras]

This is very bias.

You forgot the main thing.

As strong as is Warden kit, everything he does can be react to.
Raider ST mostly requires prédiction to punish it or always guard top to defend against because of how fast it is. And if it lands the following light is almost guaranteed unless you're lucky and block on the right side.

But yes, both are s tier. This is true

No, you can't dodge Warden's shoulderbash on reaction. Proof: https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive...o_sb_movement/
This reddit post was before the 67 ms dodge buff. However,the reaction time required to dodge Warden's SB is now 100 ms, and it is still much lower than average human reaction time.

Raider ST is a real 400 ms attack. The other 400 ms moves become 333 ms with the 67 ms artificial lag. But Raider's ST is exectly 400 ms in PVP matches, not 333 ms. An early ST is reactable on PC. It is unreactable only when it comes late during Raider zone because you also need to focus on parrying Raider's zone. You are not wrong on the last part.

[UbiInsulin]

Now this is a spicy hot take.

I think this thread is framed in a way that will make it hard for people not to react strongly to it. OP, what do you think the team should *do* with both heroes, if anything?

[Liduras]

Now this is a spicy hot take.

I think this thread is framed in a way that will make it hard for people not to react strongly to it. OP, what do you think the team should *do* with both heroes, if anything?

Raider's stamina drain should be reduced (devs already said they will do it). His side dodge GB should start later during dodge, and remove his ability to counter GB during dodge. He also needs a damage nerf (15 damage for stunning tap, 5 less damage for side heavies and chained zones). Also, although i don't think it is necessary, don't let him chain his stunning tap into a light attack to make him less annoying for other players.

Warden's side/back dodge into shoulderbash is a very strong defense (defensive moves are getting nerfed, why leave this one?). It should start later during side/back dodge (just like LB's side dodge into bash starts late). His fully charged bash should give a side heavy. The range of her uncharged and partially charged SB should be reduced and the fully charged SB timing should be earlier to balance this (simply, make it like Hitokiri's kick mixup, Warden has a good roll catcher, therefore he won't have the same problem with Hitokiri).