Suggestions to change up Shinobi's kit | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

Disclaimers..This is not a traditional rework thread, these are suggestions on how to address parts of his kit. I'm still not here to try and tell the devs how to fix the game in any capacity. Also, while I understand how to play Shinobi optimally I don't have as solid of a grasp about who he is as a hero and the intent/decisions behind the kit. Finally these suggestions are not to be a definitive thing in any capacity. How I understand him probably doesn't align with most shinobi players or the developers. So if the suggestions made sound weird that is why.

Things that should happen:
Basically meaning regardless of what happens to his kit I think these changes will be beneficial for the health of his kit and his existence in the game.

~Removal of levels of charge.
~cut effective range of ranged heavies in half.
~A damage nerf to his entire profile.
~Ranged heavies are no longer treated like lights if blocked.
~Removal of access to back flip off of whiffed attacks.
~Back flip and roll in now have I frames.
~Reflex guard decay standardized to normal assassins.
~Heavy finisher pin can be interrupted by allies.


Back flip and dodges:
To me Shinobi embodies mobility and gurellia tactics. He's not graceful like Tiandi. He's not a savage like shaman. He's somewhere in between. His mobility tools therefore should be primarily about escapes but also enable dirty tactics against his enemies. So here are some suggestions to make that more of a reality.

~Back flip is now his back dodge. Accessed on hit confirms or blocked heavies.
~Bring in single dodge attacks to compliment his double dodge manuverability.
~Perhaps merge the two. Back flipping resets his dodge "limit" letting him have access to single dodge attacks or double dodge attacks.


Follow ups:
Now that we have a few ideas rolling in regards to making him more mobile and a bit more lethal with his movement we have to discuss what those mobility options can yield us. Here are some suggestions.

~Double dodge can link into a faster heavy that is considered a heavy finisher for sickle rain. Or it can link into the Armored kick that confirms a ranged heavy finisher.
~Single dodge can link into the double light. Or it can link into a kick that is faster but does not have armor and the kick confirms a neutral non charged heavy starter.
~Back flip can link into a ranged guard break or a ranged heavy still.


Getting back in:
Escaping is only part of the job. Shinobi needs a way back in and being a threat. Keeping my mandatory changes in mind lets look at what we can maybe do there.

~Ranged heavies/guard breaks no longer unbalance the Shinobi if the person responding to him from range is currently locked onto him. Instead he's pulled close (similar to black prior counter but without the flip) to receive essentially a heavy parries worth of punishment.
~Rolling back in is now a proper mix up. The heavy finisher after rolling in is unblockable on the sides but undodgable on the top.
~Consider speeding up the lights that link from his roll.
~The roll kick itself now wall splats guaranteeing a ranged heavy.


Combo structure:
While shinobi is indeed a hit and run character dodging around an opponent is not always the smartest idea and in team fights it's pretty easy to get punished. Shinobi needs some tactics up close that help him fend people off until an escape opening presents itself. Consider these suggestions:

~Shinobi's parry counter is now a chain starter and links into a sickle rain heavy.
~Shinobi can now light light into a sickle rain finisher if he switches guard direction for the second light.
~Feinting a charged heavy/heavy finisher makes the next light follow up faster.
~Landing a sickle rain heavy can go with the standard L>L>L input or a GB input that kicks them (using the animation of the deflect kick) that splats and guarantees a ranged heavy finisher.
~Replace neutral heavy starter animation with OOS animation of heavy (but obviously faster.)


The finishing touches:
Taking any combination of these changes will make him a better hero in some regards. But it won't be quite enough. So here are some final touches to round out this hero.

~Increase stamina pool.
~Deflect gets a new input of heavy which is a sickle rain finisher. It is unblockable on sides and undodgable on the top.
~Deflect light now chains into a chain light finisher or a ranged heavy finisher.
~Can link into ranged heavy finisher or ranged GB off of forward and backward throw.


Closing thoughts:

The intended goal of these suggestions is to open up his ranged game more. I understand that externally shinobi is quite the pain to deal with. Which is why I made the suggestion to keep the unbalance factor for external situations. And shinobi's sickle rain being interruptable is to go inline with all other grab based moves. This is also why I removed the charge level and asked for a range decrease. It should force him to be closer to a fight. Thus meaning if he's countered he's at a greater risk than just sitting at max range.

Shinobi has awkward offense. The design screams wanting you to both be lethal up close and from afar but doesn't allow for either. So the idea was to give him some staying power while he's unable to be as mobile as he'd like to be. And when Shinobi can actually be mobile he's very unpredictable. I tried my best to stay away from straight up power increases in the kit as we'd rather avoid yet another raider situation. I feel like I should mention that I'm not suggesting ALL of these changes make it in as that would make him quite over tuned. These are merely improvements that I think could help his gameplay feel more fluid overall whilst keeping true to his supposed nature of a mobile fighter who employs gurilla tactics.

If you have any questions about any specific suggestions feel free to ask. I also encourage seasoned shinobi to give me their input. Both on what they did like and what they didn't. Especially hit me up if any of my suggestions combined with his current capability (or potential capabilities) might become a gross overtuned situation.

[Vendelkin]

Disclaimers..This is not a traditional rework thread, these are suggestions on how to address parts of his kit. I'm still not here to try and tell the devs how to fix the game in any capacity. Also, while I understand how to play Shinobi optimally I don't have as solid of a grasp about who he is as a hero and the intent/decisions behind the kit. Finally these suggestions are not to be a definitive thing in any capacity. How I understand him probably doesn't align with most shinobi players or the developers. So if the suggestions made sound weird that is why.

Things that should happen:
Basically meaning regardless of what happens to his kit I think these changes will be beneficial for the health of his kit and his existence in the game.

~Removal of levels of charge.
~cut effective range of ranged heavies in half.
~A damage nerf to his entire profile.
~Ranged heavies are no longer treated like lights if blocked.
~Removal of access to back flip off of whiffed attacks.
~Back flip and roll in now have I frames.
~Reflex guard decay standardized to normal assassins.
~Heavy finisher pin can be interrupted by allies.


Back flip and dodges:
To me Shinobi embodies mobility and gurellia tactics. He's not graceful like Tiandi. He's not a savage like shaman. He's somewhere in between. His mobility tools therefore should be primarily about escapes but also enable dirty tactics against his enemies. So here are some suggestions to make that more of a reality.

~Back flip is now his back dodge. Accessed on hit confirms or blocked heavies.
~Bring in single dodge attacks to compliment his double dodge manuverability.
~Perhaps merge the two. Back flipping resets his dodge "limit" letting him have access to single dodge attacks or double dodge attacks.


Follow ups:
Now that we have a few ideas rolling in regards to making him more mobile and a bit more lethal with his movement we have to discuss what those mobility options can yield us. Here are some suggestions.

~Double dodge can link into a faster heavy that is considered a heavy finisher for sickle rain. Or it can link into the Armored kick that confirms a ranged heavy finisher.
~Single dodge can link into the double light. Or it can link into a kick that is faster but does not have armor and the kick confirms a neutral non charged heavy starter.
~Back flip can link into a ranged guard break or a ranged heavy still.


Getting back in:
Escaping is only part of the job. Shinobi needs a way back in and being a threat. Keeping my mandatory changes in mind lets look at what we can maybe do there.

~Ranged heavies/guard breaks no longer unbalance the Shinobi if the person responding to him from range is currently locked onto him. Instead he's pulled close (similar to black prior counter but without the flip) to receive essentially a heavy parries worth of punishment.
~Rolling back in is now a proper mix up. The heavy finisher after rolling in is unblockable on the sides but undodgable on the top.
~Consider speeding up the lights that link from his roll.
~The roll kick itself now wall splats guaranteeing a ranged heavy.


Combo structure:
While shinobi is indeed a hit and run character dodging around an opponent is not always the smartest idea and in team fights it's pretty easy to get punished. Shinobi needs some tactics up close that help him fend people off until an escape opening presents itself. Consider these suggestions:

~Shinobi's parry counter is now a chain starter and links into a sickle rain heavy.
~Shinobi can now light light into a sickle rain finisher if he switches guard direction for the second light.
~Feinting a charged heavy/heavy finisher makes the next light follow up faster.
~Landing a sickle rain heavy can go with the standard L>L>L input or a GB input that kicks them (using the animation of the deflect kick) that splats and guarantees a ranged heavy finisher.
~Replace neutral heavy starter animation with OOS animation of heavy (but obviously faster.)


The finishing touches:
Taking any combination of these changes will make him a better hero in some regards. But it won't be quite enough. So here are some final touches to round out this hero.

~Increase stamina pool.
~Deflect gets a new input of heavy which is a sickle rain finisher. It is unblockable on sides and undodgable on the top.
~Deflect light now chains into a chain light finisher or a ranged heavy finisher.
~Can link into ranged heavy finisher or ranged GB off of forward and backward throw.


Closing thoughts:

The intended goal of these suggestions is to open up his ranged game more. I understand that externally shinobi is quite the pain to deal with. Which is why I made the suggestion to keep the unbalance factor for external situations. And shinobi's sickle rain being interruptable is to go inline with all other grab based moves. This is also why I removed the charge level and asked for a range decrease. It should force him to be closer to a fight. Thus meaning if he's countered he's at a greater risk than just sitting at max range.

Shinobi has awkward offense. The design screams wanting you to both be lethal up close and from afar but doesn't allow for either. So the idea was to give him some staying power while he's unable to be as mobile as he'd like to be. And when Shinobi can actually be mobile he's very unpredictable. I tried my best to stay away from straight up power increases in the kit as we'd rather avoid yet another raider situation. I feel like I should mention that I'm not suggesting ALL of these changes make it in as that would make him quite over tuned. These are merely improvements that I think could help his gameplay feel more fluid overall whilst keeping true to his supposed nature of a mobile fighter who employs gurilla tactics.

If you have any questions about any specific suggestions feel free to ask. I also encourage seasoned shinobi to give me their input. Both on what they did like and what they didn't. Especially hit me up if any of my suggestions combined with his current capability (or potential capabilities) might become a gross overtuned situation.

I like pretty much everything except the decreased range on his ranged attacks. I kinda feel like halving it would make it too hard to surprise, and pulling people off ladders woupd nonlonger be possible, which is a gimmick ive always loved.

[Siegfried-Z]

Tbh i was pretty afraid at the beginning because it looked like a big nerf but at the end i think all your following suggestion would be enough to balance it and even make him slighly stronger than he is.
Plus i think your version of Shinobi would be less frustrating to fight against AND funnier to play with.
It would not Turn him into a spam machine but into a more mix up intensive heroe.

Well overall this is probably my favorite suggestion post you've made. I would sign for it right now.

[Knight_Raime]

I like pretty much everything except the decreased range on his ranged attacks. I kinda feel like halving it would make it too hard to surprise, and pulling people off ladders woupd nonlonger be possible, which is a gimmick ive always loved.

I didn't know you could do that, hilarious. Anyway the range nerf doesn't exactly have to be halved. But I think he needs a range decrease in general. he'd still be off screen more than likely to whom ever is externaling him. The issue is that ranged GB's are incredibly strong with little counter play in an anti gank scenario. Shinobi is already capable of escaping pretty easily which makes punishing him at max range really hard to do.

[Knight_Raime]

Tbh i was pretty afraid at the beginning because it looked like a big nerf but at the end i think all your following suggestion would be enough to balance it and even make him slighly stronger than he is.
Plus i think your version of Shinobi would be less frustrating to fight against AND funnier to play with.
It would not Turn him into a spam machine but into a more mix up intensive heroe.

Well overall this is probably my favorite suggestion post you've made. I would sign for it right now.

I appreciate your feedback. I was super nervous about saying anything about him.

[UbiInsulin]

Thanks for this! Will be following the discussion here.

[Vendelkin]

I didn't know you could do that, hilarious. Anyway the range nerf doesn't exactly have to be halved. But I think he needs a range decrease in general. he'd still be off screen more than likely to whom ever is externaling him. The issue is that ranged GB's are incredibly strong with little counter play in an anti gank scenario. Shinobi is already capable of escaping pretty easily which makes punishing him at max range really hard to do.

Maybe a middle ground would be reducing the ranged gb range, but not the ranged heavy. Heavy is what you use to pull people off ladders from below btw. Cause yeah the off screen outta lock gb is pretty much impossible to react to. Amd as much as i like his surprise element it is kinda weird in this game.

[Knight_Raime]

Maybe a middle ground would be reducing the ranged gb range, but not the ranged heavy. Heavy is what you use to pull people off ladders from below btw. Cause yeah the off screen outta lock gb is pretty much impossible to react to. Amd as much as i like his surprise element it is kinda weird in this game.

Reducing the range of the GB would be nice yeah.

[Siegfried-Z]

Thanks for this! Will be following the discussion here.

As we still dont know which heroe are going to receive their rework/balancing pass next and i believe Shinobi is probably among the heroes who will get it next season or in s4y3 i just put this thread on the 1st page again because i really think Raime suggestion are super Nice for him and the team should look at this.

[Siegfried-Z]

This is amazing Id love to see that. This might actually make fighting against Shinobi's fun!

Agree.
Fun to play, fun to fight.