Answer to Stefan on Lawbringer hyperarmour | Forums

[Illyrian_King]

Raider didn't have one. They gave him one.

I agree that the whole "sticking to a hero's identity" thing is poor. And LB will be forever flawed because he was designed as a turtle from the get go.
But on a personal level I like having a hero based around parry options versus having yet another hero that trades through everything.

Raider didn't have one? ^^
He was the OOS maker with his gb carry and OOS mix-up pressure and hard hitting. Now he is a fast, soft-feinting, uninterruptable trading terminator.

The problem is, that you can't sustain from poking top lights and good parry options. This is not enough for an "identity".

[Knight_Raime]

Raider didn't have one? ^^
He was the OOS maker with his gb carry and OOS mix-up pressure and hard hitting. Now he is a fast, soft-feinting, uninterruptable trading terminator.

The problem is, that you can't sustain from poking top lights and good parry options. This is not enough for an "identity".

Being a stamina bully isn't an identity. And neither is hard hitting. That's like saying orochi/pk's "identity" was fast attacker.

I don't need it spelled out for me. I already agreed that LB's design is flawed because he was designed as a turtle.
I'm not defending this identity crud. it's stupid.

EDIT:

The closest thing Raider had to an "identity" would have been a grappler hero. Since throws are mega important in his kit. Stampede being what it is. etc. But it lacked certain things to be a full on grappler hero. But instead of heading that route they just turned him into a generic trading monster.

[Illyrian_King]

Being a stamina bully isn't an identity. And neither is hard hitting. That's like saying orochi/pk's "identity" was fast attacker.

I don't need it spelled out for me. I already agreed that LB's design is flawed because he was designed as a turtle.
I'm not defending this identity crud. it's stupid.

EDIT:

The closest thing Raider had to an "identity" would have been a grappler hero. Since throws are mega important in his kit. Stampede being what it is. etc. But it lacked certain things to be a full on grappler hero. But instead of heading that route they just turned him into a generic trading monster.

Of course being a stamina bully is a proper identity ... he even kept that with his stamped charge, stunning tap and OOS pressure. I don't see any problem with it. Centurion was a stamina bully before they nerfed his stmaina drain so harshly among other things.

But the original point still is, that other heroes that also aren't meant to be traders have some hyperarmour here and there. Lawbringer can have too. Also since, you can not sustain from parries and top lights alone in any higher gameplay.

[The_B0G_]

The whole health pool argument is a weak one for why his massive amounts of armor didn't equal any HA for him. Any heavy class hero with Tough as Nails has quite a bit more HP than him. He doesn't have the stamina to make use of his kit even if you wanted to play more aggressively and not turtle up.

Also, like people have already pointed out, parrying is becoming more difficult after every rework, try to parry a 500 ms light on console, it has to be predicted. No one lets neutral heavy's fly any more outside of ganks, even chained heavy attacks are only used for feinting. If you can't get a light parry, his top unblockable parry move is useless, his impale is only useful with a wall splat. His parrying really isn't impressive enough to ignore all of his other issues.

He kind of feels like Centurion 2.0 right now, everyone knows his heavy attacks will be cancelled into a GB and if not, it's only a light attack that can hit them, so it's low risk if you guard against GB.

So while he is a little better than before, he still feels like he hasn't really gotten anything of substance, Raider got an even faster stunning tap, soft feints, damage buff, hyper armor, and kept his most broken moves, not a very fair round of reworks in my opinion.

If anything his "identity" was shove on block, which is now gone completely.

[Knight_Raime]

Of course being a stamina bully is a proper identity ... he even kept that with his stamped charge, stunning tap and OOS pressure. I don't see any problem with it. Centurion was a stamina bully before they nerfed his stmaina drain so harshly among other things.

But the original point still is, that other heroes that also aren't meant to be traders have some hyperarmour here and there. Lawbringer can have too. Also since, you can not sustain from parries and top lights alone in any higher gameplay.

Nope. Raider had/has the makings of being a grappler. Because his throws are different, because stampede, because stamina damage, because stun, because dodge into GB. Again, stamina bulling is something someone can do it's not an identity. Centurion is a brawler. He has no issue draining stamina so idk what you're on about.

They don't want LB trading. They want him parrying. it's that simple. LB is still considered near S tier for dueling purposes by top players. I'd refrain from speaking about something you know nothing of. If you want to know why go hit up Caeheart.

[Knight_Raime]

The whole health pool argument is a weak one for why his massive amounts of armor didn't equal any HA for him. Any heavy class hero with Tough as Nails has quite a bit more HP than him. He doesn't have the stamina to make use of his kit even if you wanted to play more aggressively and not turtle up.

Also, like people have already pointed out, parrying is becoming more difficult after every rework, try to parry a 500 ms light on console, it has to be predicted. No one lets neutral heavy's fly any more outside of ganks, even chained heavy attacks are only used for feinting. If you can't get a light parry, his top unblockable parry move is useless, his impale is only useful with a wall splat. His parrying really isn't impressive enough to ignore all of his other issues.

He kind of feels like Centurion 2.0 right now, everyone knows his heavy attacks will be cancelled into a GB and if not, it's only a light attack that can hit them, so it's low risk if you guard against GB.

So while he is a little better than before, he still feels like he hasn't really gotten anything of substance, Raider got an even faster stunning tap, soft feints, damage buff, hyper armor, and kept his most broken moves, not a very fair round of reworks in my opinion.

If anything his "identity" was shove on block, which is now gone completely.

The whole identity argument is a weak argument. The specifics are irrelevant. The devs were clear as day. They didn't want LB to have armor because they don't want him trading. They want you to go for parries. they want you to dodge shove to counter bashes. They want you to throw shove out mid combo to discourage dodge based offense. etc. He has the best general parries in the game. Only when you consider max OOS/OOL punishes can you rival what his parries are capable of. It's 100% understandable on why they didn't mega buff him else where.

As someone who has played centurion since his launch LB's current position is nothing like centurions. Centurion's parries are objectively worse. Centurion has no answer to bashes. Lb's entire kit has more flexibility than centurions. The only thing centurion has on LB at high level of play is centurion can safely chip with his heavies. Where as LB only gets damage with trading via shove, light interrupt, or parries.

His identity has always been the high HP hero turtle. He's always been about parrying. Shove on block drew attention because it was easy to use and at average play netted damage. Shove on block at high level of play was important to discourage certain attacks. But parrying was still his main way of damage.

[The_B0G_]

The whole identity argument is a weak argument. The specifics are irrelevant. The devs were clear as day. They didn't want LB to have armor because they don't want him trading. They want you to go for parries. they want you to dodge shove to counter bashes. They want you to throw shove out mid combo to discourage dodge based offense. etc. He has the best general parries in the game. Only when you consider max OOS/OOL punishes can you rival what his parries are capable of. It's 100% understandable on why they didn't mega buff him else where.

As someone who has played centurion since his launch LB's current position is nothing like centurions. Centurion's parries are objectively worse. Centurion has no answer to bashes. Lb's entire kit has more flexibility than centurions. The only thing centurion has on LB at high level of play is centurion can safely chip with his heavies. Where as LB only gets damage with trading via shove, light interrupt, or parries.

His identity has always been the high HP hero turtle. He's always been about parrying. Shove on block drew attention because it was easy to use and at average play netted damage. Shove on block at high level of play was important to discourage certain attacks. But parrying was still his main way of damage.

My comparison to Cent was more so about his ability to open people up. I can't count how many times I get people down to a bar of health with both cent and Lb, and they completely turtle up, they expect the GB so it never lands, everything else is mostly blocking and the odd dodge until help comes.

I feel just as helpless with LB against it, neutral shove is too slow to work in that situation and that's all he really has. That's my take from it anyway.

[Zombie.Face]

please stop giving hyper armor to everyone.. the gam is turning into trading blows. its so boring to face these heroes.

[Illyrian_King]

Nope. Raider had/has the makings of being a grappler. Because his throws are different, because stampede, because stamina damage, because stun, because dodge into GB. Again, stamina bulling is something someone can do it's not an identity. Centurion is a brawler. He has no issue draining stamina so idk what you're on about.

They don't want LB trading. They want him parrying. it's that simple. LB is still considered near S tier for dueling purposes by top players. I'd refrain from speaking about something you know nothing of. If you want to know why go hit up Caeheart.

No dude you are making stuff up. Raiders always tried to mak epeople OOS. That's a fact.

Who are these people calling LB near S-tier? I asked you that so often and you never gave me a source.
I just know about Setmyx, but that one was pre-rework. All the other hardies on youtube claim the exact opposite and you wouldn't even need me to give you a source, since it would be on first page. No deep research nessarry.
Just saying S-tier and Lawbringer in the same sentence should be punished with a 1 week ban.

You better do that, instead of calling me on my personal skill ^^

My comparison to Cent was more so about his ability to open people up. I can't count how many times I get people down to a bar of health with both cent and Lb, and they completely turtle up, they expect the GB so it never lands, everything else is mostly blocking and the odd dodge until help comes.

I feel just as helpless with LB against it, neutral shove is too slow to work in that situation and that's all he really has. That's my take from it anyway.

Yes yes and yes ^^

please stop giving hyper armor to everyone.. the gam is turning into trading blows. its so boring to face these heroes.

Yes but this happens, if you give hyperarmour to the wrong heroes ... especially such, that can soft-feint every heavy into a 400ms stunning tap or guardbreak.

Lawbringer who has no soft-feint at all, would deserve some.

[Knight_Raime]

No dude you are making stuff up. Raiders always tried to mak epeople OOS. That's a fact.

Who are these people calling LB near S-tier? I asked you that so often and you never gave me a source.
I just know about Setmyx, but that one was pre-rework. All the other hardies on youtube claim the exact opposite and you wouldn't even need me to give you a source, since it would be on first page. No deep research nessarry.
Just saying S-tier and Lawbringer in the same sentence should be punished with a 1 week ban.

You better do that, instead of calling me on my personal skill ^^






Yes yes and yes ^^





Yes but this happens, if you give hyperarmour to the wrong heroes ... especially such, that can soft-feint every heavy into a 400ms stunning tap or guardbreak.

Lawbringer who has no soft-feint at all, would deserve some.

I did. Caeheart. Who is the current person in charge of the tier list. Lawbinger being s tier pre rework is the same reasons he's near S tier now. So if you truly understood why he was considered S tier then than there shouldn't be a problem with my statement now.

More than likely you don't know why and you just parrot what you see or hear because your understanding of how the game works at a higher level of play is comparable to that of a child.