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  1. #1

    Hitokiri is a mess

    Hopefully the title isn't lock worthy. Had to delete it several times because of how upset I actually am. This is very much a rant thread because I am actually pissed off. I tried giving her a fair shot despite seeing issues early on. But I can't stay positive anymore. We're 2 years in we shouldn't be designing terrible heros anymore. So before I gut her kit and lay it bare for all to see let me explain what my tipping point was.


    The competitive community just recently discovered something. As we all know out of lock guarantees damage if you get hit while outside of it. This became more prevalent when they added 300ms GB vulnerability to rolls. However, they have discovered that you can preserve the out of lock stun through a guard break. This means you can GB someone and splat them to set up quite a lot of damage. This is fine..however...EXECUTIONS are considered to be out of lock. In case you weren't aware executions give a free GB. This means it's VERY easy to guard break someone and potentially wall splat them for insane damage. The reason I bring this up is because Hitokiri is a hero DESIGNED around getting executions. And she can easily be interrupted with a GB or a bash. Essentially meaning that they designed a hero around a mechanic that gets heavily punished for even attempting.


    So if you're still here after reading that let me now talk about how bad her actual kit is and we'll start with the major complaint that everyone and their mom is upset about:

    Armor from neutral:

    This is the singular flaw in her kit that actually does something positive for her. It lets her trade on reaction to indicator. This forces both Hitokiri and her opponent to turtle up instead of attempting to engage. "but why not just feint gb/parry her?" Glad you asked. Her heavies are too quick to feint GB. And feint to parry isn't worth it. You get a heavy parry's worth of punish at best. At worst she can just feint herself and parry your feinted attempt or GB your attempted parry. It's mega unsafe to attempt to parry her heavies outside fully charged ones.


    Unblockables:

    You'd think a kit that has both unblockable heavies and bashes would actually be quite versatile. WRONG in her case. Her unblockable side heavies have the same issue is gladiator's skewer attack. Meaning you can see when they're committed to because she doesn't have momentum on her swing till she can't feint anymore. "then just use her top heavy instead." GOOD IDEA..not. See her charge heavies are like goki's. Meaning you can GB early (700ms into the attack actually) and all the way up to the attack being almost thrown. and she can't tech it. Meaning if she's constantly trying to bait a dodge or a parry by long charging you can just GB on reaction and counter the top heavy. "But externally she lands them all the time." Charged heavies have a huge recovery window. So if she's being ganked or in a team fight constantly going for those is a bad idea.

    Then there is her bashes. So so so so so so SO many people are comparing it to Warden's bash mix up. This is overselling it. Warden can access his bash mix up both mid combo and from neutral. Beyond that Warden's bash mix up isn't reactable. Hitokiri's is. People are dodging on orange which is early and that gets you GB broken. You dodge on indicator. Sweep is mega easy to avoid because you can tell when it's no longer a kick. Essentially if you space hitokiri well (which isn't hard because she has zero range,) you can back dodge on indicator and dodge to avoid the sweep and get a punish. Or roll if you're not confident. Both her kick and her sweep have stupidly long recovery windows. Meaning anytime she commits to either she's risking being guard broken.

    Her sweep in particular is so bad on recovery that if you don't buffer the heck out of her light you can actually not get the punish. Or worse you barely mistimed it so you hit someone on wake up and they get a free GB on you. Granted you can chain since it's a light starter but all options from doing so are reactable.


    Lack of flow:

    Her kit is incredibly disjointed which is hilariously sad considering they JUST made black prior. Who hitokiri basically shares kit depth with. But she doesn't have flow like his kit does. Her zone is 600ms and doesn't chain into anything. "but zone attacks are minion clearing tools!" No. Zones are now officially apart of kits. The developers have made changes for zones to compliment gameplay outside of minions. Her dodge attack tool is specifically meant to catch rolls. but because it's 700ms and has poor range you can actually parry a hitokiri attempting to catch you. At least with kensei's bad roll catch it chains. Her kick can't catch back dodges at all meaning instead of her kick/sweep being something to use as mix ups during her infinite chain you only use them on someone who's near or at OOS.


    Misc:

    She has no range or aoe presence. Meaning she's pretty bad at anti gank or clearing B. She's easily spaced. So is someone like berzerker but at least he has functional presence if he's on top of you. Her forward dodge recovery is 700ms. So she can't even attempt to punish someone with feint into GB by dodging forward to catch someone who back dodged early. Her finisher light is nearly worthless. It would justify having horrible recovery if you could chain back into her kick/sweep mix up. But instead you're basically trading meh damage for damage that's guaranteed to punish you and hit a lot harder than your light did.

    Her tier 4 feat can be early dodged and has massive recovery. it shouldn't need both when there are ways to survive it. Not to mention it's buggy. Allowing you to repeatedly use it for kills without a cooldown or kill multiple people with one use. (no I will NOT explain how this is done.) Going for executions is not worth it for her in a majority of situations because you get out of lock punished for doing so. Sure, she shouldn't be immune to the game's rules whenever she executes. But she also shouldn't be punished for attempting to play the way she was designed. She NEED executions because she has no conventional way to heal like every other hero does with some sort of aoe heal feat or second wind.


    Wrapping up:

    Overall i'm incredibly disappointed with the team. I don't understand how they can continually make a step forward but stumble every step of the way. Hitokiri absolutely REEKS of horrible design practices from all the way back in the first seasons of the game. (same with raider's rework but that's been beaten to death already.) It's just such a shame because in my opinion she's probably the best looking and most interesting designed hero of the samurai. A faction who's basically gotten jack all treatment wise through out the games life span (i'm a knight so don't @me.) I'm not going to make suggestions on how to fix her.

    I'm done beta testing your game. I'd have happily signed on as an actual Q&A tester for this game and worked for free because I love the concept of the game THAT much. But I just can't anymore. There's literally no reason for me to attempt to help.
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  2. #2
    The_B0G_'s Avatar Senior Member
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    I don't know enough to have noticed everything that you have, but your first point about the hyper armor is something I have noticed and have brought up a couple times since her release.

    Easily accessible HA just makes people turtle up, it's bad for the game and it seems like all the least armored characters get the most HA, which makes no sense either.

    Ever since the release of Hitokiro and the Raider rework the ganks for me have been unreal, constantly stunned and hammered by HA heavy's and soft feinted GB's.

    I'm hoping Mordhau releases later this year for PS4, it's becoming hard to enjoy For Honor.
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  3. #3
    Nice post, good to see that there's more people out there that see the issues Hitokiri has. I've mentioned the exact same things on a couple threads here already (although in less detail)

    She's a good noob-stomper, that's all she is but as soon as you figure out she has no actual pressure you'll easily space her out and beat her.
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  4. #4
    I agreed and one think you propably miss ... she can use 4 stars skill on commander and it takes how much 25-30% of total health maybe more so 2x Sakura in Match and its done xD
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  5. #5
    100% agree Raime.

    Thats why despite i love the concept of FH a lot, i recently bought MK11 (few months ago i was still sure i would never skip FH for such others games as Soul Calibur or MK, but at the end i needed to) and am really enjoying it atm.

    Sure it doesnt give the same feeling as FH does but at least you can just focus on your gameplay and own improvment without having to deal with a lot of issues each update.

    FH is more about frustrating gaming experience than anything else despite all the love and attention from the community.

    You should try to get a job at ubi FH team ! I would sign for this and came back to FH 😅
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  6. #6
    Originally Posted by The_B0G_ Go to original post
    I don't know enough to have noticed everything that you have, but your first point about the hyper armor is something I have noticed and have brought up a couple times since her release.

    Easily accessible HA just makes people turtle up, it's bad for the game and it seems like all the least armored characters get the most HA, which makes no sense either.

    Ever since the release of Hitokiro and the Raider rework the ganks for me have been unreal, constantly stunned and hammered by HA heavy's and soft feinted GB's.

    I'm hoping Mordhau releases later this year for PS4, it's becoming hard to enjoy For Honor.
    I feel like the developers wanted her to trade into her infinite and begin mixing up there. It's the only reason I could assume someone with such a tool kit would be given such a relatively easy way to get into it. It makes more sense to have on goki because of the way his kit is structured. And while it's still mega annoying to fight a goki because of this it doesn't feel as bad in my experiences.

    Mordhau mechanically looks like years ahead of for honor. It's just a shame that it looks too floaty and clunky for me. Hopefully the game picks up in traction enough to get them to make it look more enjoyable. As good as it is to have a solid baseline mechanically that's just not enough for me to be able to have enjoyment in long term. I practically torture myself with for honor these days (if i'm not on pc that is,) just because the asthetic of the game is so dang good.
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  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Cyroy95 Go to original post
    Nice post, good to see that there's more people out there that see the issues Hitokiri has. I've mentioned the exact same things on a couple threads here already (although in less detail)

    She's a good noob-stomper, that's all she is but as soon as you figure out she has no actual pressure you'll easily space her out and beat her.
    What worries me even more is I feel like if the devs actually manage to nail the disengagement tools nerf next season it's still not going to be enough for her.
    Like sure. She'll be harder to get away from. But she'd still have a terrible feeling kit and people will still play her by constantly trading. Normally i'd have hope that something would be done.
    But considering they didn't really adjust black prior at all until he was about to not be the new guy on the block anymore (and they didn't even bother making him better elsewhere,) I don't have high hopes that they will do anything for Hitokiri.
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  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Dazlirn777 Go to original post
    I agreed and one think you propably miss ... she can use 4 stars skill on commander and it takes how much 25-30% of total health maybe more so 2x Sakura in Match and its done xD
    Yes hitokiri's 4th feat trivializes the final phase in breach. There was a similar problem back when goki could do absurd damages with his hug.
    I'd ask the devs to reduce feat damage to the commander. But considering how dead breach is most hours and how it's basically not been fundamentally improved at all since it was released I don't think they really care about the mode at the moment.
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  9. #9
    I'm liking her so far, but I've noticed her moveset is fairly easy to avoid. I feel so useless whenever an enemy either backdodges or turtles up. it wouldn't have been so bad if her "rollcatcher" actually caught rolls ...

    She's new, people complain a lot even when it's unnecessary. It takes some time to adapt and she'll probably end up being on the low end of some duel tier list soon and only shine in Breach/Dominion.

    I'm a bit worried about the other 2 new heroes. Both harbingers we've got are extremely simple in terms of playstyle. We've got an edgelord that bashes and pancake flips opponents and a "ghostly" executioner that does a neat backflip but is basically the lovechild of Shugo and Aramusha.

    Am I wrong in saying both the Wu Lin and all the Year 1 DLC heroes had way more depth to them? the harbingers seem rushed.

    I'm holding out hope that they saved the best harbingers for last. :/

    P.S. the most satisfying thing I've done as Hitokiri so far is charging a heavy through a Berserker's zone attack, his reaction was perfect (I was in party chat with him ^^)
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  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Siegfried-Z Go to original post
    100% agree Raime.

    Thats why despite i love the concept of FH a lot, i recently bought MK11 (few months ago i was still sure i would never skip FH for such others games as Soul Calibur or MK, but at the end i needed to) and am really enjoying it atm.

    Sure it doesnt give the same feeling as FH does but at least you can just focus on your gameplay and own improvment without having to deal with a lot of issues each update.

    FH is more about frustrating gaming experience than anything else despite all the love and attention from the community.

    You should try to get a job at ubi FH team ! I would sign for this and came back to FH ��
    I was looking into getting MK11 because the shift in fighting went from constant crazy juggler combos to more about footsies and spacing. But i'm not happy with how they handled their cosmetics even after they've done some patching to improve the experience. Which is ultimately why I don't have it and likely won't ever buy it. I lost interest in SC quite awhile ago. I do own it because my brother wanted it. But I myself have no interest in it anymore. I think I might bite the bullet and buy an anime fighting game for my pc at some point if my desire for a fighting game grows significantly anytime in the near future. I've always liked those.

    As much as I appreciate the compliment I don't think i'm qualified. I'd likely not even be in a position to have any influence on anything I care about. Which would ultimately kill my desire to keep the job. Though I would love to actually fly to their studio one day just to sit down and pick their brain about the game. Even if their and my wants for the game don't line up it would be interesting to have an extended period of time where I can just examine their head space.
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