Would it be fun with all heroes on Raiders power level? | Forums

[Vakris_One]

Shaman is decently flawed as well. She just happens to make up for it with immense chase and strong gank potential. in terms of single picks and anti gank she's p bad.

Her poor anti-gank can be attributed to having reflex guard and low reach on her attacks. Her duel potential is quite decent. What she lacks in a straight up opener from neutral and OOS pressure she makes up for with her chain mixups, bleed poke soft feints and her bite pressure once opponent is bleeding.

She's hung around as a pretty solid mid to low A-tier in duels whereas Kensei has dropped all the way down to B-tier. Of the two of them she has shown more solid all-round staying power whereas Kensei has become outclassed by the newer heroes and the reworks in both duels and 4v4s.

[Knight_Raime]

Skill dependant is very subjective.. i feel like the game is less skill dependant overall each new seasons because of how reworks are made or new heroes are released.
Atm the only really skills dependant Heroes are Valk, HL, WL, Musha, Nobu, Shinobi, PK, Glad and Cent. Imo

Zerk weakness is only his short range. And i would say it is more something frustrating than a real weakness.

He is not s tier because he has no bad match up, he has no bad match up because he is S tier.
Its pretty much like that for all s tier heroes outside of few exception like Conq hard match up Vs Shinobi.

I never ask a nerf for zerk, because s tier or not, i dunno why i always did good against even good zerk. I am very used to face him maybe because my best friend is a rep 68 Zerk main.

I just wanted to say he sit in S tier because when a good Zerk start his combo on you, you can pretty much wait and pray to still have at least half of your HP at the end ^^. His offense is extremly effective, fact.

Same is true for Conq defense. Both are very well known thats why i pick them as example.

Thats why my point was only to say A tier looks like a better target for the overall balance and health of the game.

By skill dependent I mean that there is no gimmick for him to crutch on. (by gimmicks I mean something that your kit plays around. Like Kensei's unblockable top heavy mix ups or Valks shield bash.) How good berzerker is entirely depends on how good the player is. etc. Another way to look at it is any other hero in the game has a ceiling. Berzerker doesn't have a ceiling.

The hero's you listed follow a trend of "these are underdogs and require a lot to win=skillful." Which I heavily disagree with and wasn't what I was getting at. Of that list highlander is the only one that could be an exception if we take into consideration all of his tech. As without it HL is brain dead easy to play. And even then there is a hard ceiling there because of how weak his design is.

Nope. Berzerker's weakness is both range and whiff recovery. Whiff recovery because that's specifically where zerk can be punished the most. Zerk DOES have the ability to cancel his whiff recoveries to punish someone. But he can also be baited into a situation where he gets punished hard. Range is self explanatory.

Uh, no. He IS S tier because of no bad/unfavorable match ups. This directly comes from the top players in the game. Every other single hero in the game has at least one bad or unfavorable match up. Berzerker has neither. I'm not saying zerk's offense isn't a positive I was saying that he's not S tier because of it. If you watched Alernakin's break down of what makes a good hero you'd understand that offense isn't something that's highly valued. (Alernakin is a top tier competitive player.)

A tier would be healthier for the game if the game itself wasn't flawed. S tier heros are where you need to be regarding duels. Anything less is straight up not okay. Where as going for A and B tier heros for 4's is more appropriate. This is reflected in the devs feelings as well if you read their state of balance.

So to restate my opinion for the topic of this thread. If for honor DOESN'T make any major changes to the games core flaws then we need more hero's in S tier for duels and A/B tier for dominion.

[Knight_Raime]

Her poor anti-gank can be attributed to having reflex guard and low reach on her attacks. Her duel potential is quite decent. What she lacks in a straight up opener from neutral and OOS pressure she makes up for with her chain mixups, bleed poke soft feints and her bite pressure once opponent is bleeding.

She's hung around as a pretty solid mid to low A-tier in duels whereas Kensei has dropped all the way down to B-tier. Of the two of them she has shown more solid all-round staying power whereas Kensei has become outclassed by the newer heroes and the reworks in both duels and 4v4s.

Well that and she doesn't have anything about her that is remarkable defensively.
Mmn. I'll have to give a rain check on that. I'm not sure what chain mix ups you're talking about.
And her bleed simply won't land vs standard guard heros unless you light parry or deflect. Since her side bleeds are useless.

Not saying that Kensei isn't worse off compared to shaman. Just saying that, from what I know about what sticks out for Shaman she's not particularly great either outside 4's.
But i'm willing to be proven wrong.

[Sweaty_Sock]

Her poor anti-gank can be attributed to having reflex guard and low reach on her attacks. Her duel potential is quite decent. What she lacks in a straight up opener from neutral and OOS pressure she makes up for with her chain mixups, bleed poke soft feints and her bite pressure once opponent is bleeding.

She's hung around as a pretty solid mid to low A-tier in duels whereas Kensei has dropped all the way down to B-tier. Of the two of them she has shown more solid all-round staying power whereas Kensei has become outclassed by the newer heroes and the reworks in both duels and 4v4s.

Its kensei's kit though i'm talking about, does he need some work? Yes, then again so does the baseline for the entire game (look at the state of assassins for example). If kensei cannot function well against something (given his building blocks kit) then its something worth looking into

[Vakris_One]

Well that and she doesn't have anything about her that is remarkable defensively.
Mmn. I'll have to give a rain check on that. I'm not sure what chain mix ups you're talking about.
And her bleed simply won't land vs standard guard heros unless you light parry or deflect. Since her side bleeds are useless.

Not saying that Kensei isn't worse off compared to shaman. Just saying that, from what I know about what sticks out for Shaman she's not particularly great either outside 4's.
But i'm willing to be proven wrong.

She's not spectacular, no. But she has a decent answer for everything. My reasoning is that she does good damage and can access her unblockable mind game easier than Kensei can get to his unblockable finisher due to his pommel strike being very stuffable. Whereas Shammy can mind game you with her jump attack feints in order to at least get a block instead of being parried and then she's off into her unblockable mixup. Yes, you can back dodge and option select it but once she realises this it becomes a game of read/reaction punishes like with Kensei. But unlike Kensei she has a viable chase tool if you choose to dodge roll her. So she has a viable answer for each read.

Over in the comp scene she is placed in A-tier because she can create an unreactable offense due to her having bash and bleed flickers.

For me though it mostly comes down to the fact that Shammy has a decent answer for everything in any scenario. Kensei falls a bit short of that because he lacks a viable chase tool, those 600ms lights are terrible and his mid-chain pressure needs some work. That's why I say the gold standard for an all-round good hero is with Shaman and not with Kensei. Not until they address his glaring faults.

[Knight_Raime]

She's not spectacular, no. But she has a decent answer for everything. My reasoning is that she does good damage and can access her unblockable mind game easier than Kensei can get to his unblockable finisher due to his pommel strike being very stuffable. Whereas Shammy can mind game you with her jump attack feints in order to at least get a block instead of being parried and then she's off into her unblockable mixup. Yes, you can back dodge and option select it but once she realises this it becomes a game of read/reaction punishes like with Kensei. But unlike Kensei she has a viable chase tool if you choose to dodge roll her. So she has a viable answer for each read.

Over in the comp scene she is placed in A-tier because she can create an unreactable offense due to her having bash and bleed flickers.

For me though it mostly comes down to the fact that Shammy has a decent answer for everything in any scenario. Kensei falls a bit short of that because he lacks a viable chase tool, those 600ms lights are terrible and his mid-chain pressure needs some work. That's why I say the gold standard for an all-round good hero is with Shaman and not with Kensei. Not until they address his glaring faults.

Yeah she has decent neutral pressure and mid chain pressure. Combined with good chase down and good gank she rightfully deserves to be above Kensei. I do agree that she should be the standard. I think the only reason Kensei is ever named as this is because Kensei doesn't do anything overly spammy or oppressive. He's easier to deal with so obviously people who only know the game from a surface level would think he's amazingly designed.

[Playing_Mantis]

well, there will always be s tier because its based on how they compare to all the other characters. but it would be nice to have them all fit into 2 tears only. then they would all be close and balanced. if your talking current character levels i think s tier characters are over the top and id rather have all the heroes closer to the current a tier. if all were a-b tier it would be great.

[Vakris_One]

Well according to the latest State of Balance blog post the devs believe S-tier should be the gold standard for duels.

S Tier in Duels allows for exciting and creative play, and this is where we want our characters to be.

Link: https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en...ear-3-season-1

Now that's interesting because statistically these devs have only ever managed to give us what? Three, maybe four S-tier level heroes that they actually intended to be S-tier and not because of out of lock exploits. And they've been falling incredibly short of putting the majority of their new and reworked heroes into S-tier in Year 3. LB, Shugoki, Warlord and Harakiri, none of them are even close to S-tier.

So Warderino, Conquette, Zerkario and (Ste)Roider are the only fully intended S-tiers we have so far. Black Prior - the developers themselves wilfully knocked him out of S-tier cos I guess they suddenly forgot they think S-tier is, "where we want our characters to be." ... #shrug #lolz #WeGotNoClue

That's a very freestyle, winging-it-as-we-go approach. Almost like they only just decided a week ago that they think moar S-tier heroez will somehow magically solve this game's core problem: the devastatingly flawed state of offense at the fundamental level.

But ok. The devs reckon this is the healthiest thing for their game. It's going to be very interesting to see when exactly they plan on over-buffing the other 20 heroes up to S-tier. In theory it should be way simpler than giving them a carefully balanced rework. Just do the Raider thing and buff everything they have across the board without adjusting the already really strong stuff.

[Hormly]

If everyone was S tier there would be no tiers