Re-Rework Lawbringer and Raider | Forums

[KotoKuraken]

Raider:
-Make his stunning tap slower. Doesn't need a 400ms tap (speed confirmed by Freeze)
-Lower his damage. He no longer needs 50 damage on his zone, doesn't need 45 damage heavies on anything. 40 damage on best and 30 damage at lowest like the other Vanguards
-Remove his dodge gb. He no longer needs it with all his mixups. He needs to be punishable on dodge

Lawbringer:
-Give him a softfeint into gb or into longarm, so people can't just simply backdodge away from his mixups
-Have crushing counters on side lights so to reinforce the idea that he is a counter attacker
-Raise his damage, so that he doesn't have to rely on just parries alone to get his damage in.
-Give him a hyperarmor starting heavy, so that he can fit the theme of being a giant steel wall of justice

[SpaceJim12]

Well, sounds very good, this changes you offered.
I doubt Ubi will use them or even see. Still, I hope some fixes are comming, because now every game with Raider involed are a huge frustrating piece of ****...

[The.All.Father]

Raider:
-Make his stunning tap slower. Doesn't need a 400ms tap (speed confirmed by Freeze)

I just wanna say that not speed is confirmed by Freeze but time of which indicator is being shown to the opponent. It is a huge difference, cause the speed is 500 ms from what i know.

[Cyroy95]

I just wanna say that not speed is confirmed by Freeze but time of which indicator is being shown to the opponent. It is a huge difference, cause the speed is 500 ms from what i know.

Attack speed for Raider user is 500ms, indicator speed for opponent makes it look like a 400ms attack. So for all intents and purposes, currently it is a 400ms attack xD

[allenhollow]

he will be nerfed anyway

[Knight_Raime]

Both only need minor adjustments. Not total reworks. (well, unless you don't want LB to be a turtle anymore.)

I don't agree with any of your suggestions for raider beyond removing dodge GB. It's his lights that do too much now. His heavies are completely fine for the speed that they are.
Stunning tap needs a nerf on stamina damage and/or the moves actual damage. To touch anything else would be hurting it's mix up viability. Which is what we don't want because it'll just force him to be a turtle again.

I don't agree with anything you mentioned on LB. imo he only needs better tracking on heavies and a bigger stamina pool.

[SpaceJim12]

I don't agree with anything you mentioned on LB. imo he only needs better tracking on heavies and a bigger stamina pool.

So a big slow guy don't need a hyper armor? Why not? HA is everywhere now in the game, but somehow most armored guy don't have it.
And yes, if LB will have more stamina, soft feints will be less needed. Right now every failed attempt to overplay opponent could be fatal. And his stamina lead to turtle as the only chance for LB to win.

[Knight_Raime]

So a big slow guy don't need a hyper armor? Why not? HA is everywhere now in the game, but somehow most armored guy don't have it.
And yes, if LB will have more stamina, soft feints will be less needed. Right now every failed attempt to overplay opponent could be fatal. And his stamina lead to turtle as the only chance for LB to win.

Giving him HA will not make his chains more viable. It won't make his UB finishers land more. Him having armor visually has nothing to do with what his kit is about mechanically. The fact that the developers doubled down on his shove and parries should be a sign on how he's meant to be played. Armor exists for trading. If they wanted to make LB a trading hero they'ed have to increase the speeds of his heavies (or make his heavies chargable) as well as giving HA.

This is because doing so reduces the GB window/make it harder for the opponent to stuff your offense.
Speaking from a purely numbers perspective all of his heavies are 800-900ms aside from his top finishers afaik.

If your attack is 500ms from neutral that gives you (without considering lag comp and guard switch time) 300ms for his side heavies and 400ms for top heavies to react to what side he's going to and determining if LB is going to commit to the heavy. You also have to keep in mind that inputs can be delayed. Both for attacks and for feinting. Which shortens your time to react even more. Simply put? You can't actually react stuff heavies that are 800ms or faster. 900ms is pushing it. 1000ms is doable by most i'd assume.

The only realistic scenario you can even hope to stuff LB's heavies with an attack is if you're on his external and have a 400ms based attack from neutral. If you blocked a heavy from him or was hit stunned by him you can forget that entirely.

[SpaceJim12]

Why it's always so much theory and numbers in situation?
In real 4v4 situation all this doesn't metter. Land a heavy on LB is luck and a lot of preparations. It was before rework, it's almost the same right now. Shove easily dodged, feints work only in 50%, long arm...I can't even remember when I saw it last time. And his stamina is a huge problem since gear stats gone. Now imagine LB agains BP. You can't do a thing. The good BP will crush you no matter how try. If you'll try shove, you'll get dodge + light + bush + light. If you'll try feint and this will failed (which will happened against good opponent) you risk to loose all your stamina and again be a victim of light+bush+light spam.
We could try to use numbers, we could say how much it depends on personal skill. But result is result. LB after rework stayed the same hero. He have nothing to start a fight, he should turtle after any mix up due to stamina management, he got nothing. Sure, a great LB players could still be ok in fights, same is they were before rework. But this don't mean it's time to defend this useless attempt to shut all LB mainers up. Ubi failed in Raider and LB reworks both. Unfortunatly.

[Knight_Raime]

Why it's always so much theory and numbers in situation?
In real 4v4 situation all this doesn't metter. Land a heavy on LB is luck and a lot of preparations. It was before rework, it's almost the same right now. Shove easily dodged, feints work only in 50%, long arm...I can't even remember when I saw it last time. And his stamina is a huge problem since gear stats gone. Now imagine LB agains BP. You can't do a thing. The good BP will crush you no matter how try. If you'll try shove, you'll get dodge + light + bush + light. If you'll try feint and this will failed (which will happened against good opponent) you risk to loose all your stamina and again be a victim of light+bush+light spam.
We could try to use numbers, we could say how much it depends on personal skill. But result is result. LB after rework stayed the same hero. He have nothing to start a fight, he should turtle after any mix up due to stamina management, he got nothing. Sure, a great LB players could still be ok in fights, same is they were before rework. But this don't mean it's time to defend this useless attempt to shut all LB mainers up. Ubi failed in Raider and LB reworks both. Unfortunatly.

That's your best defense? Really? Theory crafting? I'm not even sure how I can respond to that. So I won't.
Yes LB is the same hero. They doubled down on his design being a turtle. I never said otherwise.
It's perfectly fine if you or others wanted something else, but ubi from the get go has said they don't want to change a hero's identity with reworks.

I'm not attempting to shut the REEEEEING up. I already tried. You guys can stir in your own piss and vinegar. I know plenty of people who like the rework both new LB players and LB vets. So I could care less what the general sentiment is on this forum.