Different approach on "fixing" Heroes. | Forums

[Illyrian_King]

There is a lot of heat going on, about the latest LB/Raider reworks and why everybody (including heavy Heroes) have Assassin-like attacks.

Simple answer: Parry is the problem!

Everything needs to be 500ms at least or have soft-feints (which is again 500ms stuff), or it will be parried most likely. Everybody can parry everything, not depending on how much shear force lies behind an attack. This is not authentic and also hurts the gameplay, since that's the very reason why everything needs to be so unbelievably fast.

Why not make heavy attacks of Heroes with really heavy weapons (like Lawbringer/Raider/Goki/Sakura) unparriable, but still blockable with higher block damage. I am thinking about 30% instead of the common 18% for all Heroes currently.

Of course this would need counter measures, like slowing a lot of their stuff down to an authentic and balanced grade (what many people would appreciate I guess), higher stamina cost AND also Hero specific nerfs that can't be generalized across all others.

Right now the line between Heavies and Assassins is thinner then it ever was!
Similar speed, similar HP, soft-feints, etc.
What's even the point about bringing out new Heroes, when all basically work the same?

My suggestion would open completely new possibilities of shaping Heroes and give new layers of gameplay, that really embraces the heavy aspect, and also gets rid of such unfitting speed.

[The.All.Father]

I would love to see more realistic For Honor but i am afraid it will never happen with what we have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WBV3FIUrSk
Look here how strong men uses this Axe of Raider (and we know it is not the biggest version) and how problematic is it for them. No toothpick katana can block this.
I think the task of programming the new, more realistic mechanics is just too hard but...maybe in For Honor 2

[Illyrian_King]

I would love to see more realistic For Honor but i am afraid it will never happen with what we have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WBV3FIUrSk
Look here how strong men uses this Axe of Raider (and we know it is not the biggest version) and how problematic is it for them. No toothpick katana can block this.
I think the task of programming the new, more realistic mechanics is just too hard but...maybe in For Honor 2

Really good video, I have just seen the Nodachi one.

In this case it would not be hard to programm what's neccessary. Just disable parries and take the heaviest block animation (since every Hero has light, medium and hard block reactions). Adjust the block damage value from 18% to 30% and here we go

PS.: For Honor 2 would be a cool thing, eventhough I doubt we will see it anytime soon.

[The.All.Father]

Really good video, I have just seen the Nodachi one.

In this case it would not be hard to programm what's neccessary. Just disable parries and take the heaviest block animation (since every Hero has light, medium and hard block reactions). Adjust the block damage value from 18% to 30% and here we go

PS.: For Honor 2 would be a cool thing, eventhough I doubt we will see it anytime soon.

U know, if realistic so realistic if comes to my opinion. Then no jumping from towers without dying and lack of armor adequate to the damage. there is no way that getting hit with all power from Shugoni to the head will not kill u. and there is no way that Orochi will do even 1 dmg with his toothpick against Conqueror . There is ABSOLUTELY no way that somebody will show the place and the fcking meteor will fall there or use magic to create a spear rain from heaven. That was just example man I find this task as "cannot be done" for now. Hope some other game will have it. BTW u played War of the vikings? I think there was something like no parry and block in 3 directions, so u might wanna see your ideas in practice

[Kadete93]

Why not make heavy attacks of Heroes with really heavy weapons (like Lawbringer/Raider/Goki/Sakura) unparriable, but still blockable with higher block damage. I am thinking about 30% instead of the common 18% for all Heroes currently.

That would be great. Should be a true difference between assassins and heavys, but something come to my mind:

In a gank situation, if a heavy and an assassin attack you at the same time (at least in the same parry window) what would happen? I can imagine a (another) problem with indicators and of course, the anti-gank defence would be harder...

[Illyrian_King]

U know, if realistic so realistic if comes to my opinion. Then no jumping from towers without dying and lack of armor adequate to the damage. there is no way that getting hit with all power from Shugoni to the head will not kill u. and there is no way that Orochi will do even 1 dmg with his toothpick against Conqueror . There is ABSOLUTELY no way that somebody will show the place and the fcking meteor will fall there or use magic to create a spear rain from heaven. That was just example man I find this task as "cannot be done" for now. Hope some other game will have it. BTW u played War of the vikings? I think there was something like no parry and block in 3 directions, so u might wanna see your ideas in practice

Also don't forget the radioactive waves when you are angry and go full revenge
Yep there are some pretty hilarious things, but still things are not getting completely out of hand ...

From the gameplay I just watched, it really has some FH wives, but more like pre-pre-pre alpha ^^

That would be great. Should be a true difference between assassins and heavys, but something come to my mind:

In a gank situation, if a heavy and an assassin attack you at the same time (at least in the same parry window) what would happen? I can imagine a (another) problem with indicators and of course, the anti-gank defence would be harder...

We are slowly facing a wall, where you can't fix the game with the existing tools anymore without minimizing variety between 24 (soon 26) Heroes to a complete low point. I guess nobody wants that ...
Currently the only tools are soft-feints, fast lights, hyperarmour and that's pretty much it. But how on earth should it be possible to distribute that between so many Heroes and still keep them unique??

Of course my idea is just a prototype, since I can not give a detailed list on what to nerf on these 4 Heroes, to make them balanced again. On Raider it would be a whole lot of nerfs after his steroid rework. But I think most people would agree, that the way he plays now doesn't fit him at all, since he is wielding an uncommonly big axe and moves like an unreactable fast git.
In the other hand Lawbringer really came short and would need further improvments, maybe only his 400ms top light should be reduced to 500ms again.
It would be task of the devs, to flesh it out ;b

[Kadete93]

Of course.. a hard work for the devs. Sadly, they are taking a different way, far from realism, and maybe even far from the original concept of For Honor. Many things have changed, and now we are facing the fast attacks with HA meta... but well.. if that keeps the game alive and they keep giving support, i guess it's ok

[rottmeister]

Opinions incoming (decided to add this title because I probably don't know what I'm talking about )
One of the things that is imo holding back characters from doing their chains is the fact that parries are too easy to pull off nowadays. However I do think it's a bit late to change the fundament of the game but I definitely could see a different mechanic in a potential For Honor 2 (if it ever will be developped). We rely too much on parries. I see your suggestion to add unpariable moves, but I feel like this would be a bit of a bandaid fix for a flawed system. Playing defensive should be way harder than it is now: parries and even blocks should be way harder to perform. Non-reflex guard heroes can just keep their guard in 1 direction and block any non UB or bash move that goes to that side. Another thing that should definitely be added in (the potential sequel) are variable timed heavies like Shugo's and Hitokiri's.

I could be entirely wrong about this, but I feel like making defense harder would be a quality of life change. Whenever I play a more defensive hero or someone who isn't 'super duper high tier' I feel like I'm playing a parry and/or punish simulator.

[Illyrian_King]

Opinions incoming (decided to add this title because I probably don't know what I'm talking about )
One of the things that is imo holding back characters from doing their chains is the fact that parries are too easy to pull off nowadays. However I do think it's a bit late to change the fundament of the game but I definitely could see a different mechanic in a potential For Honor 2 (if it ever will be developped). We rely too much on parries. I see your suggestion to add unpariable moves, but I feel like this would be a bit of a bandaid fix for a flawed system. Playing defensive should be way harder than it is now: parries and even blocks should be way harder to perform. Non-reflex guard heroes can just keep their guard in 1 direction and block any non UB or bash move that goes to that side. Another thing that should definitely be added in (the potential sequel) are variable timed heavies like Shugo's and Hitokiri's.

I could be entirely wrong about this, but I feel like making defense harder would be a quality of life change. Whenever I play a more defensive hero or someone who isn't 'super duper high tier' I feel like I'm playing a parry and/or punish simulator.

Parries are indeed too easy to pull off, but unfortunately just against heavies. With all that mix-ups, soft-feints and 400-500ms lights it's a whole other story :/
The "Art of Battle" still has a lot of flaws as the complete lack in weapon "weight" (don't know how to call it otherwise). But I mean, that a dagger is a easy to block/parry as Goki's Kanabo. It would most likely dislocate one's shoulder joints trying to parry his fully charged heavy
Also the aspect of dual wielding is completely reduced to a minimum. Of course 2 weapons means double damage, but also double attack rate. If one weapon gets blocked/parried, the other one is still free and rate to slice. We don't have that in For Honor ... Aramusha just hits wit both swords at the same time ;b

My idea won't remedy the whole game, and you are completely right that it is just bandaid for the biggest boomers, but still I think it is a good thing among many other potential improvements.
I really don't want to see the Warhammer Viking from next Season have 500ms lights and get parried by PK ^^

I think we definitely need to think more outside the box.

[rottmeister]

Parries are indeed too easy to pull off, but unfortunately just against heavies. With all that mix-ups, soft-feints and 400-500ms lights it's a whole other story :/
The "Art of Battle" still has a lot of flaws as the complete lack in weapon "weight" (don't know how to call it otherwise). But I mean, that a dagger is a easy to block/parry as Goki's Kanabo. It would most likely dislocate one's shoulder joints trying to parry his fully charged heavy
Also the aspect of dual wielding is completely reduced to a minimum. Of course 2 weapons means double damage, but also double attack rate. If one weapon gets blocked/parried, the other one is still free and rate to slice. We don't have that in For Honor ... Aramusha just hits wit both swords at the same time ;b

My idea won't remedy the whole game, and you are completely right that it is just bandaid for the biggest boomers, but still I think it is a good thing among many other potential improvements.
I really don't want to see the Warhammer Viking from next Season have 500ms lights and get parried by PK ^^

I doubt we'll ever see unparryable moves in this game. PK already parries Hitokiri's massive axe .. lol
Honestly I'm not against the fact that PK could parry an insanely heavy weapon, it should just be a more rare occurance than it is now. It should be more of a "Oh s*** I parried that?" instead of "EZ parry n00b" when it comes to heavy attacks. Smaller weapons should be easier to be parried (but faster and more difficult to react too), meanwhile heavier weapons should be harder to parry (but slower). That's where I'm stuck figuring out how it would be balanced. Would the parry timing be extremely strict? Would you be able to change the timing of the heavy? etc.