Member
Lawbringer's long awaited "rework" (Hero improvement as officially called) is finally out (2nd of may) and we had a bit of time to test it, so I wanted to start a thread regarding this argument in order to discuss and confront our experiences and maybe provide some useful feedback to the dev's team.
Now please, if you want to comment this thread you are free to but if you didn't play Lawbringer pre-rework, or you have little experience with him or if you are an IG turtle, I'd suggest you to refrain from commenting as your comment is probably not really reliable and most likely to cause a fuss.
Now let's get to the point, this rework mainly focused on:
Removing shove on block, which indeed stopped the action way too much without offering any real counter as the enemy would rather sit still and take the light than risking a dodge (Which also brought the problem of enemies turtling against Laws as they wouldn't attack to begin with)
Improving Law's offensive capability by making his lights faster and providing new chains, with final heavies all unblockables as pre-rework Law simply couldn't attack as even their light were easy parries.
Shove on block was indeed a problem both for the LB user and its enemy as already stated above, but what about the improved offense?
The changes totally made Law's offense more viable, or to be precise starting an offense with the quicker, enhanced lights, but does it really solve the problem?
With these two days of experience on the post-rework Law, I can say that it still faces a lot of problems he had pre-rework.
The most common issue is that Law's chains either have him start with a heavy or follow up the light with a heavy.
In both cases the heavy is extremely reactable. and commonly leads to an enemy parry.
Starting with a neutral shove is not feasable as it is way too easy to read and avoid, leading to lots of damage (Either while it is charged or on miss with a gb/parry on follow up light).
Feinting the heavies also rarely works, as they can't be feinted as lately as other characters can.
While speaking about heavies, It should also be said that trying to use a heavy-heavy-heavy chain will greatly deplete Law's stamina pool, causing troubles mid-fight.
Aside from being easily dodgable (and parriable), final side heavies can be completely denied by simply back-stepping or dodging backwards.
Moreover feinting the chain final side heavy WON'T grant you the ability to GB the enemy if they do dodge backward making this choice completely useless.
The GB after feint can be only be done effectively with the TOP final heavy, which being even slower is even easier to react to/ not dodge as the timing is quite strict for feinting or the enemy can simply dodge-attack ruining everything altogether.
A minor problem I think I should list is that Law's heavies start-up phase looks way too long, and that they can be easily GBed, but that could be just "bad luck" on my side as I both get GBed and GB a lot of fellow Laws trying to use an heavy attack.
Considering how slow the heavies currently are (both in chain and finishers.... 'specially the finishers) and the lack of hyperarmor, this allows faster enemies to easily dodge-attack or light spam to counter a Law from using a heavy too, shutting him out almost completely.
Now, another big issue is when Lawbringer's opponent starts turtling (either for blocking, parrying or deflecting).
Turtling is a big issue in For Honor as the Devs already said in past Warrior's Den live streams (but it's mostly a problem caused by players...), so what can a Lawbringer do in such a situation?
Law clearly doesn't have a true opener, but ok now he can indeed start an attack with his lights but the turtle will most likely be guarding on top to prevent the 400ms top light and then block on reaction to the sides.
If the Law kept using lights, at best this would turn out in a chip-damage contest... which is not great at all.
What about feinting heavies or following up the lights (which are enhanced) with a heavy? As stated above is not really possible as the enemy would be able to block the feint or parry the heavy.
What about his other options?
Neutral shove can't be used for reasons already discussed, but what about Long Arm?
The "Long Arm topic" is heavily debated.
It is indeed a 4v4 focused move (which got a little nerf) but what about 2v2 or for the sake of the argument 1v1?
Long Arm is so slow (1000ms?) and easy to recognize that the enemy can easily dodge and GB the user, so no in the fight against our hypotetical turtle it would be no good.
But is it possible to use it in 1v1 at all?
Not really, it can be rarely used against Berserkers and Aramushas flailing attacks at thin air and now without hyper armor it is a bad bet to use it against a Warden's/Orochi's or any other character's "running attacks" (Valiant Breakthrough, Riptide Strike...).
So yeah, not really any valid option.
In my head Long Arm is basically one of the signature moves of Lawbringer but in this state it should be totally reworked in some sort of softeint from another move or being able to be feinted itself or in the worst case scenario removed for something else (I've seen many people suggesting a kick, sorta like in the execution).
I understand that Lawbringer is an Hybrid Counter attacker (parry focused), but can he really fullfil this role against enemies with hyperarmor, able to softfeint into gb or simply turtling while not turtling himself? Right now, not really.
To sum everything up, this Hero improvement update did sightly improve the Lawbringer (mostly in his ability to initiate combat) but feels really incomplete and still has many fallacies to deal with.
If I was to consider these improvements by themselves I'd say it's around a 6/10 (maybe it's even too much considering how much time was needed...), but if this update will be the base for a midseason tuning/extra update It could be really promising.
I really hope to hear lots of opinions from other fellow Laws and also hope that For Honor's dev team will take in consideration any possible point they consider valid from this discussion.
User "mrbobyub" in his thread posted a series of cool suggestion for Law's moveset, especially regarding possible substitutes for Long Arm.
https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.ph...ng-manuscripts
Junior Member
I made a reply to another thread explaining how upset I am with the new LB rework. It really bothers me that he pretty much stayed in the same place, as I am playing right now. I see nothing special to LBs besides now they can semi-light spam. And have to put in all their energy into turtle-ing. As much as I want to be grateful that we got a rework, but all my friends, and I agree it's best for me to just bury him for now. Come back later if they ever do what they need to do. I really have so many problems with it. I won't go as much as a ****** as I did in the other threads, but I'll just state my reasons. If you wish to deny what I say, then I understand. It's just what I hate.
As being a rep 24 LB pre-patch, I'll say what I should say.
1. He has a 3 hit chain combo, in order to get to his unblockable.
Problem with this is, that he can easily be hit out of it by someone spamming R1 even after LB initiated the attacks.
If the second hit gets parried it doesn't matter about that unblockable ever coming out out. Unlike Shugoki,Warden,Berserker, HitoKiri, Kensei, Raider etc who either have 2 combo able unblockable's or, a command unblockable to trigger any type of reaction from their opponent. LB has to use up more stamina, More time, and hope who he is fighting doesn't parry. And yes he could shove, R1 -> Unblockable but that's relying heavily on one feature.
2. His Long Arm/Impale are virtually useless now. Both cause him to get punished heavily if they do not work.
3. He has to turtle even harder now, that bothers me due to I've been trying to not rely on hiding behind a block all of my time.
4. He is still a joke to most other characters, they all can counter-attack/disable better than LB can.(Could be a player error on my case)
Those, are my main points. But alas, hopefully they see it needs to get better, and help us out of this hole. If not then, oh well for now.
Member
@MurkenKing,
I totally agree with most your points, which are basically the same I presented.
The only thing I'm not really agreeing with is the fact that he has to turtle even more now.
I don't like turtling (nor turtles, nor spamming, nor spammers), but now Law can totally start an attack with his lights.
The real problem is continuing the offense which is basically impossible: Today I have been parried so many times even with feints throw in the middle of the fight that for today I'll probably put Lawbringer to rest and play with something else.
Junior Member
Got 48 reps on Lawbringer and now he feels... not better than he was. Yes, shove on block was a pretty bad thing but at least LB could start offense from it and had some kind of a 50/50 (or 33/33/33). Now he has only lights and shove on dodge with HA. If the dodge was successful he will eat a chained heavy (let's imagine that he's fighting against new Raider or Hitokiri) and perform a light in exchange (which is not even close to be a fair trade especially against those who have HA on heavy attacks.) What the devs should've done is to give LB something in exchange for his removed shove on block. Don't get me wrong, I'm not justifying shove on block, but it was the only viable thing that provided LB with both offense and defense. Why didn't we get something in exchange?
His heavy attacks feel extremely slow. Maybe they are the same speed as Raider's or Shugo's but they're way easier telegraphed, and thus parried. I get parried most of the times and feints don't help, people just don't fall for them.
Neutral shove is useless for attempting to start a fight. What was the point in removing shove on block if LB has to use it when dodging an attack? To make him vulnerable and trade? This trade is just a losing bargain.
For me personally, his only viable combo as for now is "Shove (doesn't matter how you access it) + LA + Unblockable (successful) + Shove + repeat it until parried or feinted. Heavy hard feint into lights also works.
But what should LB mains do when the majority of people finally figures out that the shove after a heavy can be dodged? Just keep spamming random lights and unlock?
All the changes that the devs had done to him are barely improvements. Yes, he feels better in Duels and it's more fun to play as LB in this mode, but what should do those whose main game mode is Dominion (or any other 4v4)?
In my opinion, the devs should re-rework him, otherwise he just has no place to be in this game. The devs don't seem to understand how to rework a character who had been designed as a counterattacker whose bread and butter are parries. What would be great is to change his entire kit from parry-based on something else or give him what LB mains have been asking for such a long period of time - viable offense and probably HA at least on his unblockable finishers so he could be on par with other "traders"
Member
I received Master ranked while playing Lawbringer to rep 19. My problem is that he has to parry to get most of his damage in. Now many will say "well lol just git gud, learn how to play him and learn how to parry you scrub". However, problem comes with lightspammers, bashers, and parry baiters.
When you give a hero one viable way of getting in their damage, it makes it extremely easy for your opponent to exploit that fact and very hard for the Lawbringer to force the opponent to succumb to that playstyle.
You could have given him crushing counters to help him be a counter attacker. You could have given him hyperarmor on his first heavy in a chain, to help with parry baiters and push his image of being a literal towering wall of metal and justice. You could have given him a softfeint to gb or longarm so that longarm isn't useless and he could force opponents to guess on how to react.
You did none of these things, and instead focused on making yet another Viking overly powerful to push the Vikings even harder. On top of that, parries are confirmed to be bugged this season, making Lawbringer's best tool extremely crippled
Junior Member
Very good summary @riazer96
I think:
- He needs more stamina
- Longarm needs a purpose in 1v1
- He needs other openers - Heavies are always parried
- Feints never work - should look more dangerous to the opponent
- Hyperarmor could also help - not sure though if its necessary
"I understand that Lawbringer is an Hybrid Counter attacker (parry focused), but can he really fullfil this role against enemies with hyperarmor, able to softfeint into gb or simply turtling while not turtling himself? Right now, not really."
-> thats right. Parrying is far to risky in most match ups. Being a good Lawbringer is soo much harder than being a good shugoki or raider at the moment.
I like that he is a defensive character and that he relies on parries - but parrying should be easier for Law or mixups of other chas should be less overpowered.
Member
Stamina is indeed a big problem, as it is already drained heavily from his moves and even more if the enemy parries successfully (which is not that hard) or has stun attacks like Raider.Originally Posted by Sir_Bartimus Go to original post
Hyper armor could also be useful. If you think about it Raider does have hyper and his heavies do at least look faster and deal more damage than Law's ones.
Adding some Hyper Armor on mid-combo heavies could help Law after all, on his finisher it might be a bit too much though and improving his mixups might be an overall better solution.
Openers and Long arm are also TOP priorities since turtling does happen even with high rep enemies (Rep 100+) and long arm is indeed almost completely useless in 1v1.
Member
One more issue I found and added to the list in the first post is the following:
Aside from being easily dodgable (and parriable), final side heavies can be completely denied by simply back-stepping or dodging backwards.
Moreover feinting the chain final side heavy WON'T grant you the ability to GB the enemy if they do dodge backward making this choice completely useless.
The GB after feint can be only be done effectively with the TOP final heavy, which being even slower is even easier to react to/ not dodge as the timing is quite strict for feinting or the enemy can simply dodge-attack ruining everything altogether.
@Ubisoft I'm really waiting for a reply by any moderator or anyone else from checking this thread as I think it's one of the most complete analysis on Law's rework ever done.
Moreover nobody talked about the issues with Lawbringer's rework in the warriors den, kinda like trying to not remember people the disaster it is while sightly focusing on Raider's busted rework.
Stefan Jewinski is making such a bad impression with his latests contributions to warrior den that it almost looks like as if he barely has any idea what he's talking about.
"We weren't ready to remove guard break on dodge for raider as the community wasn't ready" yet he didn't have such problems with Law's shove on block (Which I still think had to go away) and yet Law is still a COMPLETE MESS.
Community Manager
Great post, OP. A lot of these topics of concern have been ones that I've previously forwarded to the team, and I'll continue to forward specific suggestions like these.
In terms of all the offense that can be countered by back-dodging/rolling/walking, please keep in mind that the team is looking at this as a global game issue that needs addressing.
Member
Indeed, safe escapes are a thing pointed out in Warrior's Den Q&A but the fact that even with the forward movement added to his final side heavy enemies can simply back-dodge so easily and be safe from any form of feint+guardbreak while it is possible from the final top heavy (but sadly doesn't work for timing issues) kinda feels like an overlooked issue.Originally Posted by UbiInsulin Go to original post
I'm hopeful that the Dev's team simply won't leave Lawbringer in a Limbo for the time being simply because he was "reworked"/updated recently in order to start working on other (as much needing) heroes (Shinobi, Centurion...) as leaving half-done jobs in such a state would be a complete bad show of lacking quality control in favour of quantity.
Even more if you actually remember that it took more than 2 years to reach this state.
In case I'll find any more issues I'll be happy to update my list.
If anyone has experienced anything else, feel free to add your comment.
