Lawbringer Rework summed up | Forums

[Illyrian_King]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBYLWLhSbLs

Oh my goodness this guy really speaks of a LB main's heart. This is for sure no advertise, but it's simply too good to not post it, as it summs up everything. The pros and the cons.

Especially after 7min.

[Knight_Raime]

Seen his content pop up in my recommended section before but never watched him. I already knew what I was getting into but I figured i'd watch it anyway. No surprises. Well that's a lie. I was expecting with someone who had 30+ reps in a hero that they would have a bit better understanding of the hero. Meaning like, his complaint about blocked impale and how great shove from neutral is as a defensive tool now (which he didn't mention at all) stuck out to me. It also stuck out to me that he wasn't trying anything but shove after a heavy confirm. but w.e

Something that I still do not understand is why the suggestion for armor exists in the same breath as saying the heavies are parryable. Armor wouldn't help you there. If the Heavy is parry bait then the person is still going to wait to parry your heavy. All armor would do is let you throw out more raw heavies in a team fight. weee. not a big deal. I can also see that while the guy is aware on the significance of number's he's only got surface level of understanding there.

Like he compares Sakura and raider in regards to armor to LB who has none. He doesn't seem to acknowledge that in both cases (and pretty much any case where a heavy has armor) either the heavies are fast or they're chargable. Neither of which is a thing for LB. So armor alone wouldn't help. His heavies would need to be sped up.


That being said I understand the message given. It's hard to look at LB because mechanically he doesn't have much. (I could go over the list of base heros who are in a similar situation and also take the time to explain why certain things hadn't made it to LB that made it to other heros. But that would be pointless.) I understand how painful things can be when a hero you care for isn't getting the love you think he needs. And I also understand that people expected more to be done when looking at other hero updates. It especially stings when the other reworked hero is given what you wanted (armor, soft feint mix ups.)

All I can say is that At least this LB guy acknowledges that LB did get better, and that anyone who says he's worse is being silly. I came across an LB main two days ago called "father law" that iirc has double the time on LB compared to Bricky and he's loving the new rework. So just goes to show even mains among the same hero can have such different views on the same subject.

[C4rmine52]

You’ve got to be the biggest white knight I’ve ever seen holy **** man. No one agrees with you like at all, no matter how intelligent you try to make yourself look YOU ARE WRONG

[Knight_Raime]

You’ve got to be the biggest white knight I’ve ever seen holy **** man. No one agrees with you like at all, no matter how intelligent you try to make yourself look YOU ARE WRONG

White Knighting means I defend everything regardless of the situation.
If you'd bother to read enough of my posts around here I clearly don't do that.

And I even admit to understanding and sympathizing with how people are feeling about LB at the moment.
I don't think his rework was perfect at all either so. -shrug-

If all you can do is attempt to attack me instead of disproving anything I say that just speaks to your character.
I'm confident in my feelings and understanding of his kit. And I know and talk to others who feel as I do with the rework.

So. Say what you will. doesn't change anything for me.

[Illyrian_King]

Seen his content pop up in my recommended section before but never watched him. I already knew what I was getting into but I figured i'd watch it anyway. No surprises. Well that's a lie. I was expecting with someone who had 30+ reps in a hero that they would have a bit better understanding of the hero. Meaning like, his complaint about blocked impale and how great shove from neutral is as a defensive tool now (which he didn't mention at all) stuck out to me. It also stuck out to me that he wasn't trying anything but shove after a heavy confirm. but w.e

Something that I still do not understand is why the suggestion for armor exists in the same breath as saying the heavies are parryable. Armor wouldn't help you there. If the Heavy is parry bait then the person is still going to wait to parry your heavy. All armor would do is let you throw out more raw heavies in a team fight. weee. not a big deal. I can also see that while the guy is aware on the significance of number's he's only got surface level of understanding there.

Like he compares Sakura and raider in regards to armor to LB who has none. He doesn't seem to acknowledge that in both cases (and pretty much any case where a heavy has armor) either the heavies are fast or they're chargable. Neither of which is a thing for LB. So armor alone wouldn't help. His heavies would need to be sped up.


That being said I understand the message given. It's hard to look at LB because mechanically he doesn't have much. (I could go over the list of base heros who are in a similar situation and also take the time to explain why certain things hadn't made it to LB that made it to other heros. But that would be pointless.) I understand how painful things can be when a hero you care for isn't getting the love you think he needs. And I also understand that people expected more to be done when looking at other hero updates. It especially stings when the other reworked hero is given what you wanted (armor, soft feint mix ups.)

All I can say is that At least this LB guy acknowledges that LB did get better, and that anyone who says he's worse is being silly. I came across an LB main two days ago called "father law" that iirc has double the time on LB compared to Bricky and he's loving the new rework. So just goes to show even mains among the same hero can have such different views on the same subject.

My dude "how great shove from neutral is as a defensive tool NOW"?? What means NOW? It was utterly UNTOUCHED in the rework. It was an okay (not great) counter, but no opener. That's why he didn't mention it. It didn't pull him out of the dirt then and it also doesn't now.

If you watched the full video, then you must know, that he called for hyperarmour many more times. It is about the whole and not about the single context you brought up here. He said, that LB can not trade (due to no armour), can not open and has no mix-up potential another time among other cases.
Btw he has not "surface knowledge", but a much deeper understanding, then you smarty-pants guy ever had. It's bloody obvious. In all seriousness, are you some kind of master class secret society forum troll?

Again. Nobody said hyperarmour alone. He called it among all the other flaws, you defend for some unlogically reasons. What you do here is simply cutting things out of context and reshaping it here, hoping to fool someone, but nope.

Just because some dudes like the rework (as there were also guys calling PK's rework great) for which reason whatsoever, doesn't make a rework good or "approved" in any way. The vast majority of LB mains are calling this rework utter shiit. Not because it doesn't contain some good stuff (I said myself, that it was a small improvment), but because it's just a pint of cool water on a hot stone. His major issues are untackled, so badly that even among all the LB mains there are discussions, wether it's a buff or a nerf. If things go this far, then you know what's the clock. Or at least you should ...

[Knight_Raime]

My dude "how great shove from neutral is as a defensive tool NOW"?? What means NOW? It was utterly UNTOUCHED in the rework. It was an okay (not great) counter, but no opener. That's why he didn't mention it. It didn't pull him out of the dirt then and it also doesn't now.

If you watched the full video, then you must know, that he called for hyperarmour many more times. It is about the whole and not about the single context you brought up here. He said, that LB can not trade (due to no armour), can not open and has no mix-up potential another time among other cases.
Btw he has not "surface knowledge", but a much deeper understanding, then you smarty-pants guy ever had. It's bloody obvious. In all seriousness, are you some kind of master class secret society forum troll?

Again. Nobody said hyperarmour alone. He called it among all the other flaws, you defend for some unlogically reasons. What you do here is simply cutting things out of context and reshaping it here, hoping to fool someone, but nope.

Just because some dudes like the rework (as there were also guys calling PK's rework great) for which reason whatsoever, doesn't make a rework good or "approved" in any way. The vast majority of LB mains are calling this rework utter shiit. Not because it doesn't contain some good stuff (I said myself, that it was a small improvment), but because it's just a pint of cool water on a hot stone. His major issues are untackled, so badly that even among all the LB mains there are discussions, wether it's a buff or a nerf. If things go this far, then you know what's the clock. Or at least you should ...

Because it confirms damage now. that's a big deal. It already had the makings of a decent tool because it was an armored bash. Bashes being a good response to armor. It being armored means people who have armor on chains are less of a threat because he can shove them out of it. I've explained this before have I not? Yeah and none of the other buffs Bricky mentioned supposedly didn't do enough for LB. But you're going to die on this hill just because I said he missed one positive.


You say he has more than surface knowledge in regards to numbers (as that was my original statement) but you don't specify how or discredit the comparison I made. Which was that the way Bricky words himself with armor and in comparison to other heros who do have armor, that all it would take for LB to be able to trade like them is armor. Which is false. Literally what. Nothing I said was out of context. You can claim I misunderstood his point. But I literally didn't cherry pick any statements.

The whole point of me bringing up someone else was for two reasons, the first to point out that it's not one sided on how people feel about the rework even amongst the mains. And two that you used a "main" to give legitimacy to your feelings about the rework. So I brought up a main that gives legitimacy to my feelings. Also i've never stated in any of my threads or replies that his rework was amazing or near perfect or whatever. All I was ever trying to claim that he was better now. Which even Bricky says is true.

"His major issues are untackled."

We obviously will disagree here, but i'll share my input regardless. There were 3 issues that LB had pre rework that were addressed with this rework.

He had no way to punish bashes/armor based attacks beyond dodge into GB or parry. The rework gave him the capability of using shove both from neutral and chain as an answer to those things. (because again shove actually confirms damage now.)
LB's mid chain could be parried on reaction because only a light could ever follow a heavy. With the new combos he now can also do heavy after. Meaning LB can't be parried on reaction via indicator alone. Which solved that issue.

I'm not claiming those were his only issues. But they were issues that were noted by competitive players that have been fixed with his rework. The only two issues he has left that i'm aware of is that his UB heavy mix up isn't super threatening outside specific scenarios. And that he still doesn't have an "opener."

[Illyrian_King]

Because it confirms damage now. that's a big deal. It already had the makings of a decent tool because it was an armored bash. Bashes being a good response to armor. It being armored means people who have armor on chains are less of a threat because he can shove them out of it. I've explained this before have I not? Yeah and none of the other buffs Bricky mentioned supposedly didn't do enough for LB. But you're going to die on this hill just because I said he missed one positive.


You say he has more than surface knowledge in regards to numbers (as that was my original statement) but you don't specify how or discredit the comparison I made. Which was that the way Bricky words himself with armor and in comparison to other heros who do have armor, that all it would take for LB to be able to trade like them is armor. Which is false. Literally what. Nothing I said was out of context. You can claim I misunderstood his point. But I literally didn't cherry pick any statements.

The whole point of me bringing up someone else was for two reasons, the first to point out that it's not one sided on how people feel about the rework even amongst the mains. And two that you used a "main" to give legitimacy to your feelings about the rework. So I brought up a main that gives legitimacy to my feelings. Also i've never stated in any of my threads or replies that his rework was amazing or near perfect or whatever. All I was ever trying to claim that he was better now. Which even Bricky says is true.

"His major issues are untackled."

We obviously will disagree here, but i'll share my input regardless. There were 3 issues that LB had pre rework that were addressed with this rework.

He had no way to punish bashes/armor based attacks beyond dodge into GB or parry. The rework gave him the capability of using shove both from neutral and chain as an answer to those things. (because again shove actually confirms damage now.)
LB's mid chain could be parried on reaction because only a light could ever follow a heavy. With the new combos he now can also do heavy after. Meaning LB can't be parried on reaction via indicator alone. Which solved that issue.

I'm not claiming those were his only issues. But they were issues that were noted by competitive players that have been fixed with his rework. The only two issues he has left that i'm aware of is that his UB heavy mix up isn't super threatening outside specific scenarios. And that he still doesn't have an "opener."

It confirmes a light now, but it took away the mix-up, where you could even get a gb or heavy. Not even talking about, how hard it is to get a Shove in, since neutral Shove is waaay to slow and Chain Shove is reactable too and requires to throw a risky heavy first. It is not a new tool, just the follow-up is different. Which hill? What are you talking about?

Here we have a clear example of you flat out lying now: "Which was that the way Bricky words himself with armor and in comparison to other heros who do have armor, that all it would take for LB to be able to trade like them is armor." This is your own words, not his. Why do you think he mentioned all this flawed stuff from his whole rework? Because it just needs hyperarmour? Then the video would have been over at that point, no more discussion neccessary, right? Are you even hearing yourself? You pick stuff out of context and you literally do cherry picking.

Here we have the next cracking point ... I brought a youtuber up that gave a beautifully worded, clearly and logically argumented analysis on why Lawbringer is ****.
You brought a youtuber up, that simply come over like "I like the rework, here some gameplay" *gameplay*


Your 3 issues: Dude so much bullshiit ... (I write as I progress reading your text) he HAD the neutral Dodge Shove BEFORE THE REWORK, to finally get this out of this conversation! It just changed from a mix-up to a guaranteed light, but he could bash people out of their armour also before, and even had a fair chance to get an additional heavy in. His mid-cahin still has the problem, that an opener light can just be followed by an heavy, which is 100% parry bait, if not hard feinted into another light and continuing this nightmarish loop, of hard feinting every heavy into a light and not getting past the second chain. Even if you passed the 2nd chain to the unblockable you can nullify it by simply dodging back.


Edit: You recognize, that LB has no opener (so far I respect that), but why then also remove Block Shove? The argumentation was that it stretched out fights, and it was not fun to use or being hit by it ... heck it was incredibly fun to use, maybe not getting interrupted, but using was very satisfying. Also what can stretch a fight more, then a hero that has no legitimate opener?

[Knight_Raime]

It confirmes a light now, but it took away the mix-up, where you could even get a gb or heavy. Not even talking about, how hard it is to get a Shove in, since neutral Shove is waaay to slow and Chain Shove is reactable too and requires to throw a risky heavy first. It is not a new tool, just the follow-up is different. Which hill? What are you talking about?

Here we have a clear example of you flat out lying now: "Which was that the way Bricky words himself with armor and in comparison to other heros who do have armor, that all it would take for LB to be able to trade like them is armor." This is your own words, not his. Why do you think he mentioned all this flawed stuff from his whole rework? Because it just needs hyperarmour? Then the video would have been over at that point, no more discussion neccessary, right? Are you even hearing yourself? You pick stuff out of context and you literally do cherry picking.

Here we have the next cracking point ... I brought a youtuber up that gave a beautifully worded, clearly and logically argumented analysis on why Lawbringer is ****.
You brought a youtuber up, that simply come over like "I like the rework, here some gameplay" *gameplay*


Your 3 issues: Dude so much bullshiit ... (I write as I progress reading your text) he HAD the neutral Dodge Shove BEFORE THE REWORK, to finally get this out of this conversation! It just changed from a mix-up to a guaranteed light, but he could bash people out of their armour also before, and even had a fair chance to get an additional heavy in. His mid-cahin still has the problem, that an opener light can just be followed by an heavy, which is 100% parry bait, if not hard feinted into another light and continuing this nightmarish loop, of hard feinting every heavy into a light and not getting past the second chain. Even if you passed the 2nd chain to the unblockable you can nullify it by simply dodging back.


Edit: You recognize, that LB has no opener (so far I respect that), but why then also remove Block Shove? The argumentation was that it stretched out fights, and it was not fun to use or being hit by it ... heck it was incredibly fun to use, maybe not getting interrupted, but using was very satisfying. Also what can stretch a fight more, then a hero that has no legitimate opener?

It wasn't a mix up. And frankly it's insulting for you to talk about people being able to perfectly do everything yet you continue to spout this bull **** that's been debunked several times. And guess what? You can still input a heavy or a GB after you shove. the rework didn't take that way. Nor did the shove effect your ability to deal with a light, GB, or heavy post rework. This is why you don't know what the **** you're talking about. He can STILL do the same thing off of shove ON TOP OF getting confirmed damage now. And instead of taking that as a win you have to throw stupid replies back about his old mix up. Like. Can you be any saltier? it's ****ing pathetic.


If you have basic ****ing english you can see my sentence didn't claim he directly stated that. I said THE WAY he words himself it SOUNDS LIKE he's saying that. i'm not lying you ****ing ****. i'm saying the impression I got from how he was talking. and I LITERALLY said that you can slam me for misunderstanding him. Take a moment to actually read what i'm saying. Literally take a tissue and wipe your tears away so you can actually READ what i'm saying.


The person I brought up specifically mentions in his newest video on what he likes and why. Now you're just misrepresenting. Unsurprising.


Are we still ****ing doing this? SHOVE. WAS. NOT. A. COUNTER. TO. ARMOR. OR. BASHES. Because it DIDN'T confirm damage. NOW IT DOES. it's not that ****ing hard to understand. No. no no. nonononononononononononononononononononono. I SPECIFICALLY ****ING SAID HEAVY WAS ALWAYS FOLLOWED BY A ****ING LIGHT. And how that's not an issue anymore. You're talking about a light only being followed by a heavy. that's a seperate ****ing thing. If you can't even bother to stay on the same discussion about something i'm specifically mentioning why the **** are you even talking about it.

Dodge back is nullified by feint into shove. The only way you can escape that is if you convert into a roll on the proper timing. and if you don't do that LB can impale you. (but as i've already damned mentioned before I do think his UB heavies should get better tracking.)

[Illyrian_King]

It wasn't a mix up. And frankly it's insulting for you to talk about people being able to perfectly do everything yet you continue to spout this bull **** that's been debunked several times. And guess what? You can still input a heavy or a GB after you shove. the rework didn't take that way. Nor did the shove effect your ability to deal with a light, GB, or heavy post rework. This is why you don't know what the **** you're talking about. He can STILL do the same thing off of shove ON TOP OF getting confirmed damage now. And instead of taking that as a win you have to throw stupid replies back about his old mix up. Like. Can you be any saltier? it's ****ing pathetic.


If you have basic ****ing english you can see my sentence didn't claim he directly stated that. I said THE WAY he words himself it SOUNDS LIKE he's saying that. i'm not lying you ****ing ****. i'm saying the impression I got from how he was talking. and I LITERALLY said that you can slam me for misunderstanding him. Take a moment to actually read what i'm saying. Literally take a tissue and wipe your tears away so you can actually READ what i'm saying.


The person I brought up specifically mentions in his newest video on what he likes and why. Now you're just misrepresenting. Unsurprising.


Are we still ****ing doing this? SHOVE. WAS. NOT. A. COUNTER. TO. ARMOR. OR. BASHES. Because it DIDN'T confirm damage. NOW IT DOES. it's not that ****ing hard to understand. No. no no. nonononononononononononononononononononono. I SPECIFICALLY ****ING SAID HEAVY WAS ALWAYS FOLLOWED BY A ****ING LIGHT. And how that's not an issue anymore. You're talking about a light only being followed by a heavy. that's a seperate ****ing thing. If you can't even bother to stay on the same discussion about something i'm specifically mentioning why the **** are you even talking about it.

Dodge back is nullified by feint into shove. The only way you can escape that is if you convert into a roll on the proper timing. and if you don't do that LB can impale you. (but as i've already damned mentioned before I do think his UB heavies should get better tracking.)

Mate with every response you just lose more and more credibility. But let me also inform you about this one. You can input a heavy or gb after a Shove, but there is no serious chance of it landing anymore. People are not forced to decide, wether to dodge (avoid light/risk for heavy or gb) or not to dodge (avoid heavy or gb/risk for light). Now they are forced to wait and eat a light, but when there comes anything else, they simply react and get a free out of prison card.

Now my english skills are annoying you? ^^
I deny what you said, because you worded yourself totally like he said exactly that. Look I deal with english speaking folks everyday in my university. My english skills are not bad for sure.

Link the video you are talking about and I will analyze.

Shove was a fair counter to armour, since it kicked them out of their animation and gave a decent chance of getting damage in. This shiit isn't "new". Just the follow-up is different. I played Lawbringer from Season 1-9. Then I switched to Vortiger, because I was fed up with his incapability and it seems like I won't come back to him. I know all his little hints and tricks.
You talked about f*cking genius his mid-chain is now due to heavy-heavy. But it's not out of topic, to remember that a light still can just be followed by a heavy (even worse), since we are talking about the quality of his mid-chain, which is just half decent half still shiit now.

And the feint into Shove is nullified by back roll. Do you have an idea how often people slipped out between my fingers doing this just hours after the patch?

Just to summarize here what you defend for at least being a "decent" rework ... he has no opener (you admitted that yourself), his mid chain is semi-viable (since only on a very risky opener heavy can be followed with useful stuff) and his finisher doesn't work as well. Basically a 3-hit chain, that is just about feinting into lights.
His neutral Shove is still just a counter tool (don't b*tch about that).
His Longarm is still shiit (still even bounces sometimes as before).
His Block Shove gone (justified or not).
His zone might function as an option select, but I still have never seen it in action so far.
His ganking abilities are nerfed.
His parries are buffed, but impale nerfed for 10dmg.

You see, his fundamental problems are still on board so far. And do you know why? Because the devs fear way to much giving heavy characters (Lawbringer/Shugoki/Sakura and also Raider) unparriable properties on basic (maybe just heavy) attacks combined with higher block damage (thinking about 30%). Let them attack slowly with the weight they have, but let it have enough impact so it can't be parried, just blocked badly or dodged. It would make them play totally different, but nope ... the way the devs go, it will always need bash openers, soft-feints and hyperarmour to make characters useful.

[Playing_Mantis]

i think knight was the guy defending the broken conq back a while ago? i kinda stopped listening to his posts after he defended the conq as his main. he's very bias to the characters he plays even if its op broken. if its the wrong guy then i am sorry.