Setmyx Clarification on why the Tier list will no longer be continued | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

You're both coming at it from the extreme end of the same argument.

Yes there are failings on the competitive scene and yes there are failings from the devs' side of things.

People have been asking for spectator mode since launch which, as well as giving tournament runners more options makes it easier to police things within an agreed code of practice (which, by the by, is different for each organiser, there's no consensus on a hard set of rules across the board). The map argument is also valid, the devs haven't done many dominion maps recently (though in fairness they were working on breach, if they outsource the smaller maps they get what they get) and they admit themselves that they thought people would play the game different to how they do. They should also be running more competitive tournaments, if cometitive is their aim, and setting the standard with a code of practice within them (for example they knew full well that Alernakin was abusing out of lock, they could and should have stepped in at any time). At the same time they are looking at things like that, they put in a runaway debuff in duels and they are looking at disengagement in general this season so with that announced it is an odd time to bring in that complaint.

But there also comes a time that the competitive community also needs to police their tournaments rather than hand wring and say but this is what we have. The competitive Smash scene, for example, banned wobbling (whatever that is), I suspect very strongly they will ban non engagement after the jigglypuff controversy and the reaction towards it (which I think is a wrong move as it forces someone to play to another character's strengths while nullifying their own but if they do it is a move). Yes they are running tournaments which should be ubisoft's job but if they are taking that on then they have to come together and standardise expectations which yes they can police, it's as simple as saying that all competitors must stream their play and that makes it easy for someone to pm an organiser and ask them to check something over (but seriously, spectator mode would make that a lot easier devs, it is standard in competitive games for a reason). And given I raised the tournament on the devs' side, some of that was on players being willing to do that and on competitive scene players acting as casters calling it pro play, it was embarrassing all around and they all contributed to it.

On another side of things you then have the very justified complaints that people have treated resources like this with derision, the first thing I saw when the latest tier list came out was a thread or post with something like 'has setmyx's account been hacked?' because lawbringer was placed at S tier, which yes in the way that the competitive scene played him and given that they can parry lights (aka choose a hero you are strong in the style of not just for his aesthetic) was out of order.

Devs, competitive, community, they are all part of the same problem and none of them can fix all of it, there has to be a willingness on all sides to do so. There are people among all camps who want to help the game but who also need a can of grow up, these people need to get together and they need to ignore people who only want to troll or who whine every time something changes that takes away something they crutch on.

I can concede to the fact that the attitude of some competitive players is not the best. I can also acknowledge that while it is technically fair for anyone to use any method to win that is within the games parameters is not "favorable" to most of the community. I understand that part of the reason this is done is to try to force the developers hand into dealing with something. But I also understand that sometimes the ends do not justify the means.

I will not pretend to speak for competitive players or for the general player base. But I do want to make one thing abundantly clear. These top players do not enjoy how optimal play is done. They're not advocating to keep things like heavy unlocked play or flickering. They specifically highlight how busted the game is because they WANT the developers to fix it. Ideally they want an experience most other games that foster a competitive experience has. I.E being able to have fun at both a casual and competitive level.

I lost my temper in my previous reply because it's frankly absurd to blame the competitive community for the games failings. If you want to blame them for their sometimes ****ty attitude that's fine. If you want to blame them for making exploits/tech more publicly available for other players to abuse that's also fine. But don't blame them for how things work. Don't blame them for how optimal play is. Certainly don't blame them for the reason on why they don't enjoy the game anymore. It's been mentioned by several players here that they feel like the developers never listen to them or care for the casual player. It's exactly how the competitive side feels. They stopped doing workshops with the competitive community months ago. They rarely have an open dialogue with them anymore. Both the causal side and the competitive side have been trying to get the devs to listen to them to improve the game. The developers do not favor either side nor do they try to only appease one side.

I sympathize with the competitive crowd because they do try to get information out there to help players understand things. Specifically the tier list exists to help people who want to meta game their experience. But like any other resource they've put forth it's often rediculed or misused. And as someone who posts on the reddit frequently it's not at all uncommon for a non competitive player(s) to blatently insult and downvote them into oblivion just because they don't like being told otherwise. I'm not saying the competitive people are saints. I'm well aware of Setmyx's video that came across as incredibly insulting and rude. I just want people to understand that's not done because they're jerks. it's done because they're mistreated. They're humans just like everyone else.

EDIT: was more rambly then I meant. Basically I can agree that the competitive community needs to step up and improve their attitude. They also need to police things better so both parts of the community can come to a middle ground on what is and isn't okay. But I also think the developers need to start being more vocal on what kind of gameplay is and isn't acceptable. And they need to take actions to enforce that. After all, there is no point in asking either the casuals or the competitive players to police anything if the devs don't bother trying to do anything about it.

[The_B0G_]

I can concede to the fact that the attitude of some competitive players is not the best. I can also acknowledge that while it is technically fair for anyone to use any method to win that is within the games parameters is not "favorable" to most of the community. I understand that part of the reason this is done is to try to force the developers hand into dealing with something. But I also understand that sometimes the ends do not justify the means.

I will not pretend to speak for competitive players or for the general player base. But I do want to make one thing abundantly clear. These top players do not enjoy how optimal play is done. They're not advocating to keep things like heavy unlocked play or flickering. They specifically highlight how busted the game is because they WANT the developers to fix it. Ideally they want an experience most other games that foster a competitive experience has. I.E being able to have fun at both a casual and competitive level.

I lost my temper in my previous reply because it's frankly absurd to blame the competitive community for the games failings. If you want to blame them for their sometimes ****ty attitude that's fine. If you want to blame them for making exploits/tech more publicly available for other players to abuse that's also fine. But don't blame them for how things work. Don't blame them for how optimal play is. Certainly don't blame them for the reason on why they don't enjoy the game anymore. It's been mentioned by several players here that they feel like the developers never listen to them or care for the casual player. It's exactly how the competitive side feels. They stopped doing workshops with the competitive community months ago. They rarely have an open dialogue with them anymore. Both the causal side and the competitive side have been trying to get the devs to listen to them to improve the game. The developers do not favor either side nor do they try to only appease one side.

I sympathize with the competitive crowd because they do try to get information out there to help players understand things. Specifically the tier list exists to help people who want to meta game their experience. But like any other resource they've put forth it's often rediculed or misused. And as someone who posts on the reddit frequently it's not at all uncommon for a non competitive player(s) to blatently insult and downvote them into oblivion just because they don't like being told otherwise. I'm not saying the competitive people are saints. I'm well aware of Setmyx's video that came across as incredibly insulting and rude. I just want people to understand that's not done because they're jerks. it's done because they're mistreated. They're humans just like everyone else.

EDIT: was more rambly then I meant. Basically I can agree that the competitive community needs to step up and improve their attitude. They also need to police things better so both parts of the community can come to a middle ground on what is and isn't okay. But I also think the developers need to start being more vocal on what kind of gameplay is and isn't acceptable. And they need to take actions to enforce that. After all, there is no point in asking either the casuals or the competitive players to police anything if the devs don't bother trying to do anything about it.

As far as unlocked gameplay goes, the devs repeatedly say they don't want unlocked tactics in the game. So that is something they don't think is acceptable.

I fought a LB a few days ago that kept running in tight circles, unlock attacking me, any time I didn't guard the running impale they would top light attack or just GB, it was pretty cheesey.

Personally I feel like the game is winding down, these are probably the last hero releases we'll see. I believe For Honor 2 is in development. Hopefully they've learned from their mistakes and how to make viable heroes more effectively the first time around.

[Knight_Raime]

As far as unlocked gameplay goes, the devs repeatedly say they don't want unlocked tactics in the game. So that is something they don't think is acceptable.

I fought a LB a few days ago that kept running in tight circles, unlock attacking me, any time I didn't guard the running impale they would top light attack or just GB, it was pretty cheesey.

Personally I feel like the game is winding down, these are probably the last hero releases we'll see. I believe For Honor 2 is in development. Hopefully they've learned from their mistakes and how to make viable heroes more effectively the first time around.

Yeah they've firmly made statements on unlock tech and out of lock play and made efforts to deal with both. They're also making work towards taking care of disengage tools and indicators (maybe to help address flickering in the process.) If they properly address those there really isn't much left for people to abuse afaik. Like maybe charge based moves as parry option selects. But atm I can't think of anything else. Point is if more issues pop up the devs need to stay on it.

And yeah I don't see any more major content releases happening after the last hero drops. We MIGHT get another year of QoL support like continued tweaks or reworks. but I don't think new heros or maps.

[Tundra 793]

Yes even you tundra. Grow up guys.

Yeah I know Raime, my post was made in haste after a **** day, on top of a **** week, on top of a **** month, on top of a **** year. I know better and should do better for the community here, I done ****ed up.
I meant parts of what I said, but i sure didn't say it in any way constructive enough, sorry y'all.

Everyone here knows For Honor drifted far away from somethin' I could truly love a long time ago, and I've been out of the loop so long it's no point trying to either justify or clarify what I said; My technical knowledge of the game's just gone at this point, so I'm gonna just bow out of any discussion about balance.

Of course Candle's absolutely right about both of us though, and his temperament, mediation and advice is appreciated as always. I'm just gonna go play Sea of Thieves instead.

[Col.Bullet]

These open yet very understanding posts are both wonderful and sad to see. The situation has a kind of tragic beauty because of things like these.

[We.the.North]

For Honor has always been a shadow of what it could be and the true fans have been very loud about what they wanted the game to become. Ubisoft did a very poor job at improving the game and looking forward to season 2-3 during season 1 very embarrassing tournament where Roman said "soon you will have to change your playstyle".

For Honor became a very frustrating "meta" where players are being fed a "new overpowered hero" one after the other as Ubisoft clearly overbuff them. That, or Ubisoft keep an overpowered hero at the top for MONTHS without touching him (conqueror for 3-4 seasons in a row ?).

This game has very poor designers at its core, or very bad management forcing designers to work on stuff they know will be bad for the game and can'T do anything about it because they don't have the power to make decision within the team ... By the way, Jason, the old creative director with the "vision" of what a great game For Honor could be, was FIRED and kept until the end of the developpement only not to create a scene ... he was the face of the game and when it released, they made it public Jason was being let go. Jason had the vision of how great For Honor could be ... it's Ubisoft that turned For Honor into all those 50/50 gameplays.

Ubisoft sucks as a company, they are solely responsible for killing the hopes of For Honor's fan seasons after season of bad decisions. Fans just need to realise what For Honor is ... at this point : a joke.