lawbringer 'rework' is terribly dissapointing | Forums

[Illyrian_King]

His rework feels a bit underwhelming, but this version of LB is much better for the game. He should be viable in 1v1's without stalling for time and kiting, and he's still strong in 4v4's

I know it's weird to some people that the large man clad in plate armor has no hyper armor, but his big and bulky design represents his large health pool. LB isn't designed to trade with people.

The new version has barely any changes. Just 100ms faster lights and not interrupted side lights and some damage buffs&nerfs. His unblockable offers no mix-up. No soft-feint and can be interrupted easily because there is no hyperarmour.

Also his healthpool is not large ... it's just a little snitch more. Most heroes are somewhere at 140-150HP and Lawbringer hast 160HP. That's really not the world.

[David_gorda]

Very bad,
I was hoping for hyper armor heavies, softfeints and some mix ups with longarm. Poor rework.

[darksavior1977]

What I would have liked to have seen:

A reduction from a 3 hit chain to a 2 hit chain like Jiang Jung and Vortiger have gone with. 3 hit chains often load the last hit with the unblockable and it is easy to avoid/counter. True combinations can be long, however chains are much more risky that way and only work on opponents who are not paying attention or of lower skill than average.

HyperArmor on opening hits, unblockable on finishers; this is much more effective. Openers are best to trade with for timing.

Parry counters: Should be guaranteed, as the risk involved stems from the parry, and built in punishes either must do as much damage as default parry punish options, or offer some utility other than damage if they do not. Getting to the long arm off side parries would have been a cool option. Maybe a bash with the flat of the poleaxe off top parries that causes blind and some stun would be a cool option off the top parry counter. If his kit is effective otherwise he can follow these parry counters with offense, allowing these bashes and long arms to create openings for him.

The ability to soft feint heavy attacks into the impaling charge, with a reduced stamina cost than the unlocked charge attack. I get why unlock charges cost so much stamina, but off a soft feint that penalty wouldn't make sense.

All heavy attacks sped up; I get that thematically LB swinging that axe kinda slow might fit, but no character's "flavor" should justify being an ineffective fighter. Speed up the heavies to make them actually have a chance in hell of hitting someone without guaranteeing they'll be dodged or parried please.

Make his shove faster and give it some mix up potential. As it stands the mix ups are limited, and the shove from neutral or after a heavy initiates too slowly.

[Oddy._.]

I know it's weird to some people that the large man clad in plate armor has no hyper armor, but his big and bulky design represents his large health pool. LB isn't designed to trade with people

It's sad though when people with less armor have hyper armor, and the new hero Sakura, wears cloth and some wooden shoulder pauldrons and has a bigger health pool than LB, with Hyper armored heavies.

@Knight_Raime, about your number 4 there. What about it before took any less thought? The fact it did have hyper armor, that makes it brain dead? The time I used impale after parry was if I absolutely knew there was a wall within reach behind the target. I didn't mindlessly use it going "lalalalala!" out in the middle of the open. So the argument you make that it was brain dead gameplay just based on the fact it had hyper armor is not a strong one.

[mrmistark]

I'm only responding to you because we have history. I respect you. You repeate yourself a lot and I'm on mobile about to head to sleep. So I'll respond to a few things here. And then if you want we can talk in pms. As I'm done discussing LB already. It's frankly Redick that people are talking about shove on block being so amazing as a mix up but then state in the very same breath that his new 500ms lights will always be parried and his new shove is reactable.


Anyway. Numbering the responses to you from top to bottom:

1) I still play console. I also play pc. 90% of the time I'm solo queing. I have no troubles ganking effectively with randoms. It's easy if you observe what your ally does and aid them instead of trying to force your own setup once they're on scene. Yes. The nerf made it factually harder to use LBs gank tools. And it's better for the game in the long run if all grapple based attacks can be intrupted. It forces smart use of your tools and awareness of your surroundings. Rather than being that LB or raider that ool runs in circles at a team fight repeatedly trying to grapple someone. LB has one of the very few tools in the game that doesn't apply damage reduction to enemies when they are grabbed. That's insane power.


2)mid chain has access to a 400ms light. A shove that isn't reactable and has armor that guarantees a top light that chains into chain finisher. Or a heavy. The added combos means his chains are no longer predictable. And feint into GB. His bash is 500ms. That's faster than tiandi palm and as fast as shaolin kick. You have access to the shove from hit block or whiff. Meaning he can always threaten with his shove. Yes all he can do is feint or commit to his finisher. Same thing applies to wardens top heavy finisher. And I'm pretty sure they share the same speed. Yet no one thinks his ub mix up is bad. And if yiu try to hit him out of the finisher he can just feint into neutral shove because it has armor. Or feint into parry.


3) his zone parry is UB with armor. So you can choose between different damage amounts on parry. Go for riposte into chain. Go for impale or UB top into light guarantee if light parry. Or zone parry on heavy parry to deal with being surrounded. Zone option select parry is doable now because his zone from neutral is now 700ms from 900ms. Means his GB vulnerability is around 400ms. So a feint into gb buffer would catch it. But still. I'm not saying it's an amazing option select parry. I am saying it's a viable thing to do now because of less vulnerability.



4)you're being melodramatic here. Impale and long arm are usable in the same places they were viable. They require thought now. That doesn't make them suddenly irrelevant. Shove on block isn't a nerf. You only specifically shoved very specific things. And LB had so many factors to consider for what tactic to use after shove. What hero did he shove? Is the person attempting deflects? Are they back dodging? Are they only dodging on indicator? Etc. Yes. Technically if LB knows exactly what his opponent is going to do LB had an answer. But it was far easier for LBs opponent to react to what LB was attempting to do.



Most people I've spoke to actually like what's been done with LB. We all thought having shove be the mix up tool would be cool. But we also like that shove is apart of his mid chain mix up now. Like you can very easily do what shaolin does with his kick. Buffering shove. Delaying shove or faking out the person and GBing their dodge attempt. The fact that you can do that on top of threatening to follow up with a delayed top 400ms light in the same mid chain pressure is ****ing insane.


There are still some things we won't know till we get our hands on him. Did they alter any feint windows? How Delay able is shove? Are his recoveries still the same?

I'm not saying the nerf to his gank tools are not significant. I'm saying that what LB gains makes him a far more interesting hero to play against and play as. I feel like once people actually get in there and play with his new way of playing its going to click with people.

And if he's not your thing anymore that's fine. (know some goki players that happened to.) and I sympathize. But I still think the direction he's going in is the right one. Even if they dropped the ball with making long arm usable outside impale.

Well I sure hope you’re right and it feels good once it comes out. Perhaps it’s that next to Raider rework it looks even worse as LB had things taken away and not TOO much added.

I agree the direction it’s going is healthier for the game and it’s nice that he can come out of his defensive shell, but compensation wise, at least on paper, things don’t look to add up. I’d say his kit is about even on paper as it was previously tbh, but LB is defiantly one of the lowest tier characters except in a gank squad. I wish they had removed his bombs and gank tools but so they could give him extra mix up options.

The problems i see with what you brought up is that initiating the shove, where a lot of the focus stems from for the rework, is either from neutral or a whiffed Heavy. Both are pretty risky even with a speed buff. If you dodge the shove, it’s a free GB->heavy. If they throw a heavy to initiate a shove in chain, it’s going to be pretty obvious if whiffed, and if they’re close enough the heavy is risky being parryable. It just seems like a good chunk of risk to initiate it for a free light. You can’t follow up on a miss so it’s not like the conq bash, BP bash or shinobi kick where it’s nearly impossible to punish. We do have more options in chain which is good, but again, the UB finisher not having HA makes it easy to light out of. Shove initiation won’t be fast enough after a hard cancel. You’d have about 500ms on average to hard cancel into dodge->shove initiation. I don’t think that’s doable. The best hope is that they attempt a parry so you can feint GB for heavy into shove into light and continue your chain.

GB will pretty much be his #1 tool. That and top light opener.

I’m glad you’re very optimistic and I wish I was just as much. I really just don’t see it being a worthy compensation of what he lost and more importantly, I don’t think it will bring him up any closer in the rankings. We will have to see when he comes out exactly what the delays are like and how smooth his chains are though to fully grasp how well done or poorly the changes effected his viability.

[Sweaty_Sock]

Just MAYBE play it before forming massive judgments

[CRIMS0NM0NKEY]

On paper it looks disappointing and more like a renerf. I don't play Lawbringer but considering how utterly popular he is I was expecting an epic rework. Since I don't play him I'm not disappointed but confused. I thought he'd get a massive overhaul of all the characters.

[I_Am_OddGirl]

I'm reserving myself to try it before I make any hasty comments about it. I will admit on paper and even in the stream I just kinda sat back and sighed, but I am still going to try it out first. No matter what He will still be my main..I'm at rep 64 with him and decided to main him the first time I launched For Honor the day it came out and saw him. I was like yeah that is my Big Boy. lol. However I have been using alot of different heros over the course of For Honor's life mainly because I was frustrated and needed a more....freeing character to use. I can do well with Lawbringer sure, if I do not mind playing kinda slow against heros like JJ, Conq, Orochi, and Shugoki. I have slaughtered those heros as well, but when I face those characters in duels when you see their rep matching yours...it's a bit more of a coin toss. I fought a JJ just today actually that I could not touch. Though it was my own fault as I wasn't turtling like I should and I was missing my light parries. But he would do that back up move like a mofo. Xbox One btw if it matters. I'm hoping for opening pressure, i didn't see much that gives that. I want to have that because honestly if you really only cared about winning and you were completely ok with 100% turtling. Lawbringer is one of the few if not the only character you can beat 100% of the time if you turtle 100% of the match..no pride kinda matches. option selects anytime I throw anything. Mix that with the characters that get confirmed 2nd lights thats two hits per success..that's the match right there. I want opening moves. Something to force a reaction I can attack with. The shove atm is reactable and you get nothing if the shove hits. I do not count it if your hit relies on them being bad. I base my move off of what it would be like to fight the best player in the world.

[Oddy._.]

I will admit I jumped the gun with my opinions as if I had already played him when in retrospect I should've reserved my judgement for in-practice. I guess I myself like many others were expecting something more... After 2 years you'd think after the tons of threads about LBs rework ideas and so forth would be more inspired based for the game devs. I'm going to sit and wait, get my hands on the new LB and see then make my judgment.

[UbiInsulin]

I'm reserving myself to try it before I make any hasty comments about it. I will admit on paper and even in the stream I just kinda sat back and sighed, but I am still going to try it out first. No matter what He will still be my main..I'm at rep 64 with him and decided to main him the first time I launched For Honor the day it came out and saw him. I was like yeah that is my Big Boy. lol. However I have been using alot of different heros over the course of For Honor's life mainly because I was frustrated and needed a more....freeing character to use. I can do well with Lawbringer sure, if I do not mind playing kinda slow against heros like JJ, Conq, Orochi, and Shugoki. I have slaughtered those heros as well, but when I face those characters in duels when you see their rep matching yours...it's a bit more of a coin toss. I fought a JJ just today actually that I could not touch. Though it was my own fault as I wasn't turtling like I should and I was missing my light parries. But he would do that back up move like a mofo. Xbox One btw if it matters. I'm hoping for opening pressure, i didn't see much that gives that. I want to have that because honestly if you really only cared about winning and you were completely ok with 100% turtling. Lawbringer is one of the few if not the only character you can beat 100% of the time if you turtle 100% of the match..no pride kinda matches. option selects anytime I throw anything. Mix that with the characters that get confirmed 2nd lights thats two hits per success..that's the match right there. I want opening moves. Something to force a reaction I can attack with. The shove atm is reactable and you get nothing if the shove hits. I do not count it if your hit relies on them being bad. I base my move off of what it would be like to fight the best player in the world.

Appreciate where you're coming from. A lot is at stake for mains who are waiting on a rework. I hope that the changes work out for you once they're present in the live game.