1. #1

    Nobushi is the worst duelist in the game

    I've heard some people argue that nobushi was worse before the patch but that is just not the case at all. (I'm mainly talking about 1v1 scenarios here. 130rep overall. 66rep nobu.)

    Nobushi was very good in 4v4 and 2v2 before the patch but not a really good duelist. Her defense was the main thing that made her good. Also she had good punishes (can't really argue that they were overtuned if you look at some other characters).

    Having good punishes and strong defense made her very satisfying to play when she actually worked as intented. She still lacked a proper opener and you were pretty much doomed if your enemy was able to parry/block your offense which was very reactable. If one argued that her kick was a pressure tool, they were wrong because it was extremely reactable if you actually focused a little. The ONLY opener/pressure tool was her HS heavy on block which confirmed a kick.

    Well, now she has bad defense and also very bad offense. First of all if you think that by speeding up her lights (HS 400ms pseudo lights) she's just fine, you can think again. Yes they have a bit higher chance of landing but they are easy block in most cases (If thrown from neutral). Well it doesn't really matter if you manage land them because of:

    - Second Light Attack in chains now deals 10 damage (from18 on top and 12 on side)

    - Reduced Bleed damage to 12 (from 20).

    The damage of the heavy attacks doesn't feel satisfying either, when you compare it to something like kensei. Nobushi's damage felt like a compensation for her lack of offense and when you managed to punish your opponent it felt good. The damage you output now from a risky defensive move called hidden stance is just so unsatisfying. Also stacking the bleed doesn't help this problem at all in 1v1. I'm not completely sure about the heavy dmg changes either, because her damage wasn't super overtuned. I know that 46 from top heavy(WHEN BLEEDING, normally 38) is high but it still doesn't match for example lb's damage output. Atleast make her neutral top heavy 35 or something.

    Nobushi's defense is now very matchup specific, for example matchup against highlander doesn't change much but matchup against warden changes. I know hidden stance was too safe but now the move feels like just a another dodge. The biggest nerf was hands down the removal of her HS heavy on block -->kick. No one, absolutely no one complained about it being broken or too strong. The problem was that not everyone knew about it and that led into complaining about it. I'm not sure if it was a bug in the first place but it wasn't broken at all, it wasn't even an opener in the first place. It was the only way of forcing a reaction out of your opponent safely but now that it's gone, there's nothing. The heavy out of HS doesn't have any meaning now since your opponent can just block it and that's that. I don't want to sound like a desperate player whose main just got nerfed and wants the devs to revert the changes, but if they actually published the move it would be totally fine and there wouldn't be any misconceptions.

    I don't know about you but at the moment nobushi is unplayable for me (I know that in 4v4 she is much better) because the character feels unrewarding and unsatisfying to play because your damage numbers are a lot smaller and you don't have anything in your kit other than 15dmg light attacks and 32 damage heavy attacks. The level of people I play against is 100% capable of blocking/parrying/dodging/countering my offense so there isn't really any reason to play her because I'm forced to play the waiting part in the games. Her pickrate has been so freaking low in all game modes so I can't understand how can they call these changes improvements and call it a day. This is my opinion and I would like to hear what's your take on the changes ^^
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  2. #2
    Her damage was nerfed because her hidden stance attacks were considered to be dodge attacks by the competitive community. So if you look at them in that context then they were horrendously over tuned. Her damage is fine now in way of bleed stacking imho. As far as HS heavy block into kick that wasn't even good offense in itself. As you were capable of back dodging on HS animation and then be out of range of her heavy. It was just "some" kind of offense that she had when it came to ganks and team fights.

    It was removed for the same reason every other psuedo unblockable was removed. The application of the hitstun in gank/team fight scenarios. It confirmed things for other fighters that give zero indication that this was happening. So to an uninformed mind (which is literally most of this playerbase) you'd have inconsistencies in your gameplay for seemingly no reason. Personally i'm a fan of block confirms. As blocking stifles offense too hard. But the devs don't want to (at least at the moment) attempt to make it a full fledged mechanic. (gathered as much when I asked them about the removal instance of this in aramusha's case awhile ago.)

    All in all I think all the nerfs they gave to Nobushi were fine sans maybe the increase to her sidewinders GB vulnerability. As it makes using it for dead angling opponents through swapping stupidly risky now. It seems like the devs were listening to the comp complaints about her but didn't understand why her kit worked the way it did. As evidence by them basically nerfing her target swap/external presence when that was never complained about or asked to be looked into. And them not buffing her offense really well. The problem with the changes done to Nobushi (and to a lesser extent Shinobi) is something they have a bad history of doing. They nerf without proper compensation.

    Its fine to make small incremental changes to a kit like adjusting recoveries or adjusting damage numbers. But when you make big changes in either direction you have to do so in the opposite direction. This is why Raider's rework was stupid when it dropped. They buffed him really hard without really taking anything from his kit. This is why pk, orochi, and warlord have been in the state as long as they have. They were over nerfed. and then never given really proper looks at.


    Overall really no one is 100% happy with how Nobushi is now. The only solace I have is that because of her nerfs plus the body count nerf it changed the 4v4 meta and now you run 2 players to mid with rotations rather than one person making B their home. And theres a few more viable picks for B now because of her nerf. Personally I don't think she's the worst duelist atm. But she's close.
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  3. #3
    I play on console (PS4). IMO Centurion, PK, and Nuxia are definitely worse than Nobushi. It is debatable that Glad and Highlander are also worse than Nobushi.
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  4. #4
    belowMinRequirm's Avatar Banned
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    Originally Posted by TukK1s Go to original post
    The biggest nerf was hands down the removal of her HS heavy on block -->kick. but if they actually published the move it would be totally fine and there wouldn't be any misconceptions.
    I agree with putting it back in the game and just giving a description for it in the movelist. IF you could mixup light/heavy from HS properly this would give her a very reasonable (read: still not that good) offense that costs a fairly high amount of stamina.

    Im not sure if there wouldnt be some sort of dodge timing that negates all of it though. Backdodge/backrunning on HS at certain distances might work, not sure how nobus range works out in those cases, especially because HS itself has a fairly long windup. It will probably work well enough once they get in your face.

    From a duel perspective - Nobu got nuked from orbit thats for sure.
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  5. #5
    I thought shinobi is the worst
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  6. #6
    I think nobu is at the same level with cent atm: reactable attacks and bashes. Cent can confirm bigger dmg numbers, with wallsplat but that will change. PK and Nuxia have pretty unreactable light attacks that are fairly easy to "spam". HL and glad have actual offense of some sort with unblockables, bashes and 50/50 mixups(mainly with HL).
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  7. #7
    belowMinRequirm's Avatar Banned
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    I dont think youre doing yourself a favour if you focus the discussion on "who is the absolute worst character in mode". The game is way too matchup dependent and perception varies way too much based on playerability and individual approach to the game.

    Shes in a very bad spot and the real question is how she can be fixed.
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  8. #8
    Originally Posted by DeamonXII Go to original post
    I thought shinobi is the worst

    Shinobi is definitely the worst in the game for 1v1, particularly after Patch 2.11.
    Nobushi has the advantage against Shinobi, as do most heroes.
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  9. #9
    I really feel sorry for NoBu. I'm rep 70 with her. Since the beginning of this game. She got nerfed over and over over the years. They took her feats away her moved away her damage away. She has nothing going for her. She has no opener no HA no UB no soft feint. Only thing they corrected was removing 600ms top and stamina during HS which was stupid to have in the first place. Only pressure tool she had was to HS into heavy into guaranteed light they removed that too. She literally has nothing. It doesnt matter if bleed stacks. Because you have to apply bleed with a light attack first. Bleed attack itself doesnt do any damage anymore it just applies bleed. She has the easiest to parry light attacks in this game so good luck trying to stack bleed. It's very simple to deal with Nobu. Just block! If you see a kick or HS just take a step back and she cant do anything because she has no gap closer. She feels so under powered now. It's so hard to kill an enemy because bleed attacks doesnt do any damage so her damage got nerfed. I stopped playing with her anymore
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  10. #10
    EvoX.'s Avatar Senior Member
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    Nobushi is the rarest hero, nowadays. She's basically PK 2.0, overnerfed into a below average hero. Hopefully she's one of the heroes on the testing grounds at some point.
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