Why complain about BP but not Warden? | Forums

[Klingentaenz3r]

BP is only S tier because his bash is safe. Should it be punishable? Yes. Would that alone balance BP? Absolutely not. Make the bash punishable via GB if dodged, but he'll require compensation in other areas lest BP become just barely viable at mid level play.

It's a great factor but not all there is to it. His kit revolves around a tight defense. And even if he were more punishable on his bash he would be still powerful. light into heavy would still catch dodge attempts, his CC mechanic would be still unrivaled in 2v2s as well as the usefulness of his bulwark stance and its counter with 100% damage reduction.

He in fact would have to rely abit more on his counter attacking parts and master the usage of BWC against chains. A good BP would still be strong. Not S Tier in duels though.

But no doubt he could use some more stuff on the rest of his kit to expand it a little bit and make it more interesting.

[atac56]

-Believe it or not BP is S tier in the competitive tier list made by top players

-His bash isnt punishable. Dont write wrong information just because a few heroes can do it with some special mooves others doesnt have (such as Raider Dodge GB). His bash inst vulnerable to Dodge GB for all others and most Dodge attacks doesnt work except bash one's. Everyone know it.

-No all guard ? Are you sure ?

Tbh i find a little bit funny to see you saying BP isnt only fine but almost weak while i remember you asking here for a KENSEI nerf not so long ago... it look a little bit biased dont you think ?

i meant to type in superior block on all guard stance. when he's hit in his stance he staggers, he cant immediately counterattack after being hit in that stance unlike most characters with all guard.

of course im going to sound biased because those are my opinions. i think the kensei is one of the better characters in the game, well above the black prior. majority of the forum community calling the black prior an S tier hero and doesnt make it a fact. majority of the forum community also believes the berserker to be S tier which is an opinion i agree with. how the berserker and the black prior can be on the same level is beyond me

[Knight_Raime]

What are you implying? a normal bash guarantees double side lights or a top light and I am pretty certain the lvl 1 bash as a reaction to tenebris rising cannot be dodged..

Level 1 bash can be dodged by black prior. The reason conq's bash lands is because of it's better tracking and because his bash can be initated 100ms into his dodge. Where as Warden's bash has to wait until at least 300ms into his dodge.

[Knight_Raime]

i meant to type in superior block on all guard stance. when he's hit in his stance he staggers, he cant immediately counterattack after being hit in that stance unlike most characters with all guard.

of course im going to sound biased because those are my opinions. i think the kensei is one of the better characters in the game, well above the black prior. majority of the forum community calling the black prior an S tier hero and doesnt make it a fact. majority of the forum community also believes the berserker to be S tier which is an opinion i agree with. how the berserker and the black prior can be on the same level is beyond me

The stagger in his FB means very little unless you're ganking him. And even if you are he can still input his bullwark counter to catch the person you're ganking with. All the stagger does is prevent him from leavin BW immediately after taking a hit. And even though there is no superior block lights will still bounce on it.

Kensei is decent due to his top heavy mix ups and his ability to trade with his aoe. But in regards to a 1v1 engagement he falls very quickly. Majority of his mix ups can be stuffed on reaction with option selects. He has zero mid chain pressure. And his pommel opener really isn't a threat unless you are near OOS or are OOS. He also has some of the worst match ups in the game with current S tier heros like conq.

Berzerker is S tier in duels only afaik. This is due to his sheer speed, easy access to trade, viable unblockable openers, ability to cover both of his own downsides, generous input windows with feints, and the fact that he has zero bad or unfavorable match ups.

Black prior is S tier due to having only 2 bad match ups. Bullwark counter being able to situationally punish after being hit stunned and beating out most gank attempts via fast flows. A basically unpunishable bash attack. The ability to negate 400ms offense with both fast flow into bullwark and instant guard on dodge. Having crushing counter as an option select tool similar to valk. And finally his unblockable heavy/undodgable heavy finisher mix up being quite oppressive.

As far as 4's go BP isn't S tier afaik but he's not a slouch either. You basically can't 1v1 him barring his 2 counters. And while he doesn't have anything particularly amazing to add to a team fight he's not inherently weak in a team fight either. him and Zerk are kind of in the same position. Both great 1v1ers but both lack in chase down. The fact that he can back up in FB and heal at the same time while threatening with an UB or a potential flip is also a major factor for his good performance in 4's.

You likely haven't connected the dots on why his kit is as good as it is. Or what you consider qualities for S tier heros are not what is considered the qualities/guidelines that are generally accepted from the competitive community. Yes their opinions are not empirically correct. But at the very least they probably understand the game on a much deeper level then you. So their opinions should at least be worth considering.

[HKPirate]

Siegfried you sit here complaining about 1 move a charge move saying it's not punishable, all it takes is back dodge back and light attack boom hes hit while coming up short because it has zero range. You want some cookie cutter way to beat every characters moves with your character to you can follow a rotation instead of actually using skill. I dont know what you main but, I'd be willing to bet it's something that has a similar move not a bash per say but an attack that is hard to punish or cannot be punished by everyone. Also missing bashes will leave the BP with zero stamina quickly and if you cannot punish that then lay your controller down and go play forknife. Seems like it would fit you better.

[Siegfried-Z]

Siegfried you sit here complaining about 1 move a charge move saying it's not punishable, all it takes is back dodge back and light attack boom hes hit while coming up short because it has zero range. You want some cookie cutter way to beat every characters moves with your character to you can follow a rotation instead of actually using skill. I dont know what you main but, I'd be willing to bet it's something that has a similar move not a bash per say but an attack that is hard to punish or cannot be punished by everyone. Also missing bashes will leave the BP with zero stamina quickly and if you cannot punish that then lay your controller down and go play forknife. Seems like it would fit you better.

Man dont get Mad at me because i've highlights what everyone already saw : you have no clue about for honor .

Of course i am not always right but overall i know what i am talking about and my name is known here for a year.

So first of, I AM not complaining, everyone is about BP bash recovery.
Back Dodge into light, even 400ms neutral one doesnt work on reaction. You have to predict it.

Dont enter in the poor argue of what i am maining or not, this is irrelevant. Even more when you know i am mostly playing low or mid tier heroes. But doesnt matter.

You should keep calm and not say kid things such as i want an easy mode game or i should play something else etc. This is also irrelevant.

In another hand you just proove yourself your lack of skills and understanding of FH by saying BP bash is 100% fine but in another thread saying Cent is so strong and doesnt need a buff......Cent is weak man.

So, saying BP is fine but Cent too strong looks extremly biased and low level view of the game.

Just git gud and came back here.

[Klingentaenz3r]

Level 1 bash can be dodged by black prior. The reason conq's bash lands is because of it's better tracking and because his bash can be initated 100ms into his dodge. Where as Warden's bash has to wait until at least 300ms into his dodge.

try to test it again. I cannot come to that conclusion after checking up on it myself ... but at least I granted you the benefit of the doubt ;-)

[Liduras]

Sorry for the late reply, but i want to explain why BP is weaker than you think.

Unless BP is at the closest possible distance, he needs to delay his bash. The nonexistent range and tracking of his SB allows you to avoid almost all of the delayed SB timings with an early backdodge (keep walking back to avoid even later bashes), then counter with a GB. You can roll away against forward dash into zone on reaction (you can recover your stamina before BP can get closer), and counter GB against his forward dash into GB on reaction.

If BP can throw his SB without delaying, it is your fault for turtling at that distance. Most heroes with a viable offence can initiate their unreactable mixups from a longer range.

It is basically a nerfed version of Warden's SB. Warden can feint into GB anytime but BP needs to finish his forward dash to GB. Warden's early dodge counter mixup (fully charged bash and feint into valiant breakthrough) can not be avoided on reaction, but BP's early dodge counter mixup (zone, GB and forward dash heavy) can be avoided on reaction. When you expect a delayed SB from Warden but he uses uncharged SB, you take guaranteed damage. But when BP uses his bash earlier than you guess, you can still dodge it on reaction to avoid damage. A backdodge counters a lot of bash timings against BP, but Warden's SB has a much smaller dodge timing.

[The_B0G_]

Sorry for the late reply, but i want to explain why BP is weaker than you think.

Unless BP is at the closest possible distance, he needs to delay his bash. The nonexistent range and tracking of his SB allows you to avoid almost all of the delayed SB timings with an early backdodge (keep walking back to avoid even later bashes), then counter with a GB. You can roll away against forward dash into zone on reaction (you can recover your stamina before BP can get closer), and counter GB against his forward dash into GB on reaction.

If BP can throw his SB without delaying, it is your fault for turtling at that distance. Most heroes with a viable offence can initiate their unreactable mixups from a longer range.

It is basically a nerfed version of Warden's SB. Warden can feint into GB anytime but BP needs to finish his forward dash to GB. Warden's early dodge counter mixup (fully charged bash and feint into valiant breakthrough) can not be avoided on reaction, but BP's early dodge counter mixup (zone, GB and forward dash heavy) can be avoided on reaction. When you expect a delayed SB from Warden but he uses uncharged SB, you take guaranteed damage. But when BP uses his bash earlier than you guess, you can still dodge it on reaction to avoid damage. A backdodge counters a lot of bash timings against BP, but Warden's SB has a much smaller dodge timing.

One flaw of this entire dodge back theory is it's only good in duel mode. If you give BP space with his heal on block perk he will just heal every time you roll away or give him space. No bash or attack works so you need to be close enough to GB to punish the heal.

[Knight_Raime]

try to test it again. I cannot come to that conclusion after checking up on it myself ... but at least I granted you the benefit of the doubt ;-)

If you're on console it's basically impossible unless you can make godly reads. On pc it's perfectly doable if you have good reaction time. I personally can't consistently do it. But I have done it. I'm more or less relaying info from the best players in the game.

Sorry for the late reply, but i want to explain why BP is weaker than you think.

Unless BP is at the closest possible distance, he needs to delay his bash. The nonexistent range and tracking of his SB allows you to avoid almost all of the delayed SB timings with an early backdodge (keep walking back to avoid even later bashes), then counter with a GB. You can roll away against forward dash into zone on reaction (you can recover your stamina before BP can get closer), and counter GB against his forward dash into GB on reaction.

If BP can throw his SB without delaying, it is your fault for turtling at that distance. Most heroes with a viable offence can initiate their unreactable mixups from a longer range.

It is basically a nerfed version of Warden's SB. Warden can feint into GB anytime but BP needs to finish his forward dash to GB. Warden's early dodge counter mixup (fully charged bash and feint into valiant breakthrough) can not be avoided on reaction, but BP's early dodge counter mixup (zone, GB and forward dash heavy) can be avoided on reaction. When you expect a delayed SB from Warden but he uses uncharged SB, you take guaranteed damage. But when BP uses his bash earlier than you guess, you can still dodge it on reaction to avoid damage. A backdodge counters a lot of bash timings against BP, but Warden's SB has a much smaller dodge timing.

Yes, you can roll away from zone if you dodge early and convert into roll on orange. No, that's not consistently possible for most players. It's already known that BP can't do anything to people who roll his offense. That doesn't mean anything because you're not punishing him. And in 4's rolling his offense is a bad idea anyway because any chip damage you manage to do to him he can just back away and heal. Which good luck trying to punish because if you've rolled you can't close the gap quick enough for a GB and he'll just bullwark counter any attack you attempt.

Again, it's already known how easy it is for you to avoid his bash. It's punishing it that you can't do. Because he's incredibly safe it bolsters his semi bad offense. You're information while maybe helpful for some doesn't counter the points of BP being insanely good.