Why complain about BP but not Warden? | Forums

[ArchDukeInstinct]

Although Warden is stronger, BP takes all the hate.

I don't think BP gets all that much hate really. At least not compared to what I've seen thrown at other classes. You should have seen the nonsense that Conqueror had to put up with in 2018, and funnily enough a lot of the people that cried back then because Conqueror's shield bash wasn't "punishable enough" now think BP is totally fine with an even more forgiving bash recovery. It's just too hilarious.

[Klingentaenz3r]

While my reaction isn't...right for me to do it's 100% warrented in my book. It's frustrating to constantly have to explain in detail why someone's information is flat out incorrect. Maybe I wouldn't mind if I was asked why instead it would be easier for me. I understand that I don't know everything, and that if I was some random person posting for the first few times that skepticisim would be warrented. But i've pretty much established myself here. You guys know me. So i'd expect at least the benefit of the doubt. But anyway. With the explanation of my outburst out of the way. Let me EXPLAIN Warden to you:

Warden has 3 level's of his bash. Uncharged, charging, and full charged. The competitive community refers to them as level 1 ,2 and 3. So from this point forward so will I. His level 1 bash can't be lighteded as a counter. This is because the earliest he can do his bash is 300ms into his dodge. However this bash can be beaten with a dodge attack or dodge GB. Further more you can dodge GB it because the recovery on the whiffed bash (at any level of charge) is long. You can even GB him in start up of the bash.

His level 2 bash can be beaten out by a light/zone, a GB in start up, a dodge attack, or a dodge into a roll. Because he is charging you can technically dodge early and still have time to dodge again to avoid his level 2. Everything that beats his level 2 bash will also beat his level 3 bash barring hitting him out of it because at this point he has armor. But this is fine. Because at this point you have ample time to straight up avoid and punish.

It's also worth mentioning that you can still entirely avoid his bash game while out of stamina. You can still dodge early and then dodge again to correctly avoid his level 2 and 3 bash. In addition to the above universal ways to avoid/punish his bash there are character specific ones as well. For instance, gladiator's backwards heavy spaces warden out completely. Warden can't approach gladiator because his heavies have long range. And due to their attack speed you can't attempt to even GB it as a response. and since they're feintable trying to parry them is a bad idea. Valk of course has her shield tackle. It avoids all of warden's offensive options on reaction and can punish most of them. Raider can dodge GB or threaten with stunning tap on dodge. Warden can punish the latter on a read. But not the former. etc.

Warden (for the most part) can technically counter any universal way to punish him. But due to the timings of things none of it can be done on reaction. If he tries to feint GB or feint into dodge heavy in reaction to your dodge into roll his GB bounces off and the person rolling can block the dodge heavy. Warden has to throw the dodge heavy while you are in the middle of doing your dodge in order for it to land. Because then it will hit you while you are transitioning into roll. Feint into GB only works out because you're catching them in the start up of the dodge timing wise. If you try to do it on reaction it's too slow and they can CGB. It's mega unsafe to do against someone who has a dodge attack because then you're punished.

Warden can feint to parry a zone/light attempt. But not on reaction. Because there is a brief recovery period after feinting before you can do any action. And if the person is timing their attack with your charge right there is no brief period for you to wait on their input. They're already attacking you once you start charging. To try to frame it in numbers you have to charge and then input feint immediately. Practically simultaneously on your inputs. This visually would look like you almost didn't even charge. You need to do this because as mentioned previously the earliest you can input your bash is 300ms into your dodge. If the person is using a 500ms attack that means you effectively have a 200ms window to react. This doesn't factor in guard switch time or the recovery you're put into after a feint.

Essentially speaking if the attack is 600ms or faster parrying is not a reaction with warden. It's a read. The one method I haven't mentioned is feinting a charging bash into an uncharged bash. This can punish someone who messed up their dodge timing and they're going for a second dodge or a roll. But it's incredibly situational so it's rarely used. So this brings us full circle. Warden can't punish his opponent on reaction because properly timed/used punishes put them out of reaction territory. But this doesn't mean Warden's opponent is free to punish him on reaction. If Warden baits his opponent into reading him wrong Warden can punish the wrong read.

Warden has the advantage here because people are forced to play his game. And due to the flexibility and strengths of his bash/kit Warden can punish attempted punishes on him. Something most hero's can't do. But because none of Warden's options are safe and the risk he puts himself in every time he tries to be offensive/punish Warden can't just spam out things at random and win. Warden needs to read his opponent and act accordingly. And his opponent needs to Ready Warden correctly and act accordingly.

thx Raime for laying that out in detail for those guys. Glad I don't have to do it. And I fully understand you saying that it is sometimes quite exhausting to see posts like this which are already so stubbornly solt out on their biased views that it hurts to read. So thank you again for that. Hopefully it makes a difference.

To sum it up, and yes I am a rep 60+ Warden main, Warden is all about reads but dodge into rolling properly used cancels out his shoulder bash approaches entirely and every option is punishable. BP is very safe with his shieldbash and it also drains much more stamina from the opponent than shoulderbash. I can easily deal with an Aramusha against Warden as he is approachable and can be defended against well. It is an entirely different story against BP (I play BP too so I am fully aware of his kit and capabilities too). It is of course possible to fight and win but BP is much more uptight with his defense and hard to crack due to the unpunishable shieldbash (viewpoint of aramusha) threat of CC, parry and of course bulwark counter on combo entry but also on reaction on the deadly feints. And of course the constant forward pressure and possible stamina drain is what really kills fights easily. Warden matches are far more enjoyable.

But don't get this wrong, I would love to see some changes to the Warden's kit and have the actual swordmoves be more extended and made more viable as it is very limited atm and it would be nice to have less focus on the shoulderbash.

[garr1999]

Warden's rework made him bland but he can still be off/def
however the nerf to black prior's fullblock also
made him weak on an offensive/defensive standpoint he was already
nerfed after release and the only thing that made him good was his bulwark counter and bashes
which he can't use anymore for the fact of slow recovery which crippled him in my opinion
however I can understand why he was nerfed twice but they could of just taken his ability to change guard
during a dodge he can't side bash like conqueror can BP can only forward bash

[Klingentaenz3r]

Warden's rework made him bland but he can still be off/def
however the nerf to black prior's fullblock also
made him weak on an offensive/defensive standpoint he was already
nerfed after release and the only thing that made him good was his bulwark counter and bashes
which he can't use anymore for the fact of slow recovery which crippled him in my opinion

Why do you think it crippled him garr? In what situations? The change was needed as he was able to go out of fullblock on reaction to a feint. So high tier players would be able to deny any gb punish attempt. I also think that the most important, valuable and effective part of bulwark stance is still the fast flowing after an attack or after blocking an attack. Making him still incredibly strong to counter lots of mix ups. And going into fullblock from neutral is as fast as before.

I for one just have issues with the remaining bugs I encounter with his bulwark which are not yet fixed (BP going for a BWC although an unblockable was input after tenebris rising)

[Knight_Raime]

thx Raime for laying that out in detail for those guys. Glad I don't have to do it. And I fully understand you saying that it is sometimes quite exhausting to see posts like this which are already so stubbornly solt out on their biased views that it hurts to read. So thank you again for that. Hopefully it makes a difference.

To sum it up, and yes I am a rep 60+ Warden main, Warden is all about reads but dodge into rolling properly used cancels out his shoulder bash approaches entirely and every option is punishable. BP is very safe with his shieldbash and it also drains much more stamina from the opponent than shoulderbash. I can easily deal with an Aramusha against Warden as he is approachable and can be defended against well. It is an entirely different story against BP (I play BP too so I am fully aware of his kit and capabilities too). It is of course possible to fight and win but BP is much more uptight with his defense and hard to crack due to the unpunishable shieldbash (viewpoint of aramusha) threat of CC, parry and of course bulwark counter on combo entry but also on reaction on the deadly feints. And of course the constant forward pressure and possible stamina drain is what really kills fights easily. Warden matches are far more enjoyable.

But don't get this wrong, I would love to see some changes to the Warden's kit and have the actually swordmoves be more extended and made more viable as it is very limited atm and it would be nice to have less focus on the shoulderbash.

I should also mention that I specifically try to avoid explanations outside the opening statement of my own threads specifically because i've been given so much crap in the past for being overly wordy. I do try to trim my responses to not add additional information that's not needed at the time of replying. But still. I wouldn't blame Baggin or anyone else to skip right over my wall of text. Those are not fun to read most of the time.

I only decided to do so to both validate my arrogance and also to inform Baggin to the best of my ability. All I seek to do on the forums here is to attempt to bridge the gap between the average player and the competitive one. Because the only thing that seperates them imho is knowledge. I don't care if Baggin still dislikes Warden's kit after i've explained how it works. All that I look for is for the people who respond to me is an open mind/willingness to be wrong. It's something I strive for within myself. My experience with @Archdukeinstinct on here has proven that I didn't know a character as well as I thought I did. Which has kept me humble. Even though me and him don't get along I still appreciate his willingness to call me on my **** with actual information. Rather than only focusing on attacking me.

[Sweaty_Sock]

Knight_Raime - right on the interrupts, timings etc.

Baggin_ - I believe referring to parry fishing with the shoulderbash. To do this you have to essentially do the equivalent of a feint - you start a shoulderbash with the intention of cancelling to parry whatever it rattles loose. To help deal with this remember which stance the warden was in before he started the bash when you are going for a light interrupt as per Raime suggestion. Hit somehwere his stance isnt (preferably the side) Also if he is doing this alot just throw a few GB's, the penalty for cancelling SB is exactly the same for a flash second as for 1% off full charge, so if the warden does this without getting the parry they are burning a significant chunk of stamina

Also on topic I complain often, and loudly about the warden, and I am a rep 70 warden (hate the rework, just had invested that much time in it that I thought I'd push through to rep 70). He is too much of a one trick pony with a lack of other kit

I don't like quoting myself but it seems list in the mix. Most what Raime says here is correct. Also what Baggin_ is saying

EDIT: Someone disagreeing with you isnt a personal attack. Every chill the *raider tapping* out

[Siegfried-Z]

When there is even a little distance, BP can not hit with his bash without delaying it. His delayed bash can be dodged early and countered with a GB or side dash attack by guessing (it was possible even before his nerf). It is much easier than avoiding Warden's SB because Warden can feint into GB anytime but BP can GB only at the end of his forward dash. Also, even when you guess wrong against BP, you can still dodge on reaction to avoid damage, but guessing wrong aginst Warden gives him almost guaranteed damage. Warden's damage is higher too. He can GB much easier (then throw a 30 damage heavy). Although Warden is stronger, BP takes all the hate.

Warden SB = Got dmg if he catch you/Opponent got dmg on Warden with a correct read.

BP SB = Got dmg if he catch you/Opponent (except a very few) got nothing with a correct read.

BP has almost zero risk to use his while Warden puts himself in a risky situation each time.

Simple as that.

[EvoX.]

Prior is stronger, he's more consistent because of his safety. He deserves all the hate he gets and more - in the end, he turned out to just be another bash abuser, only it's even worse because it's the first truly unpunishable move in the game, and for how much it guarantees, that continues to be idiotic. Although at this point it's kind of obvious the developers have no intention of not designing characters around a single, annoying move (apparently the extent of their abilities/imagination), it's still pretty sad how they're totally okay with his state and how every Prior player, from below average to top competitive, uses him in the exact same way. Frustrating, boring, unfair to play against.

Assuming equal skill between two opponents, the Prior player will always win unless he's against Raider or Conq. The amount of skill you need to have over a Prior player in order to win is the highest required among all other characters, unreasonably so, and that's... not okay.

[Star.Princess]

black prior is a new character thats why he gets all the hate. rather than taking the time to learn how to combat a new character most players call for a nerf.

New character? BP in the game more than two months now. Everyone has already tried to learn to play against him, he is just very strong, he is S-Tier #1 in tournament tierlist from top players, a lot of top players play him in ranked in grand-master. I don't think BarakYEET or Setmyx playing him because he look very cool, probably he is just OP thanks to unpunishable bash.

[HKPirate]

To even think warden or BP is op compared to shaman, centurion, Jiang, shaolin is rediculous.