Problem with Progressive Difficulty and Challenge Chasing | Forums

[Casughoul]

The game is enjoyable as a casual shooter and exploration game.

The problem with games like this one is that there is a constant chasing of more challenging PvE environments. This leads to unbalanced gear and bullet sponge opponents as the AI cannot learn to change tactics to adjust to the changing play styles of players.

If you have a "challenging" environment then players "expect" better gear as a reward. This is a poor way of handling this. Increasing numbers on gear then increasing numbers on opponents doesn't make for a good game. You will be increasing to infinity and it will cause an imbalance that will only be fixed with "normalization" that just makes the "better" gear pointless anyway.

End game for games with stats such as this has always been about Min-Maxing. Lowering unused stats or disadvantaging yourself to maximize other stats that benefit your play style.

Stat rolls being random and having randomized stats mean that the player will have to play a lot to try to get the piece of gear with the cosmetic they like, the max stats they are searching for, and ability modifiers.

Challenges come from PvP interactions. A player will ALWAYS be a better opponent that an AI until AI can reach a level of intelligence that they can learn from their disadvantages.

If NPC stats are unattainable by the Player then it's a poor design. You are artificially inflating the NPC to a super-standard that is impossible for a player to achieve. Players are already disadvantaged by the number of players that are available to face the challenge, where as NPC are not limited to the number of NPCs that can be attacking the player at once except by the hardware limitation.

There is no reason for artificially inflated stats and skills for NPCs because you will just cause imbalance.

Replay-ability will come with having a fun experience for the player that they can determine for themselves what is rewarding.

Some players may just find face-rolling opponents to be rewarding, others may not. Although, their may be something else they can achieve from the same experience that they determine rewarding.

End Game opponents should be more like slot machines. You invest your time for that big payout one day that you can use against PLAYERS not artificially inflated NPCs.

If players want a challenge in the sense of having artificially inflated NPCs, instead of inflating gear stats, REDUCE the stats for that challenge. Then reward the player with better chances at the higher end gear.

If players want to face-roll opponents, that means they will be doing MORE rolls, or MORE pulls of the lever. Then you REDUCE the chances of getting high end gear, you DON'T eliminate it completely.

If players want to feel threatened by opponents, you don't INCREASE the opponents stats, you REDUCE the player stats, this means LESS rolls, and LESS pulls of the lever. Then you INCREASE the chances of getting high end gear.

Eventually, you will have a balanced player base that has min-maxed their builds and they can bring this into PvP or into the challenging PvE areas and have an easier time.

LIMIT RESPECS! This will mean that players will have to really think about their build and it will be more challenging to create custom builds and more rewarding when people are able to discover that different build.


It's so frustrating to play a game and then in the next expansion they raise the ceiling and make all the work and time you spent on the game for naught.

Expansion are suppose to introduce NEW mechanics and NEW builds to the game. They should EXPAND on what is there and not cause artificial inflation in the name of "challenge".


Challenges should be about limiting the player, not raising the ceiling.

Pistol Only challenge, No Armor challenge, Night/Fog Mode challenge, Limited Ammo challenge.


That's all I can think to say about it. If anyone wants to add on to it or discuss their point of view it would be appreciated.

[markvrk]

Well put post.

However, if opponents stats aren't increased, but ours is....isn't that the same thing in the end as increasing the opponents stats? I mean the end result would still be the same. We'd be underpowered somewhat, or by a lot, in comparison. It's not so much about opponents being inflated, as it is about how much are they inflated with each difficulty jump and archetype, in addition to the current build making mechanics and the lack of certain limits in that and the risk vs reward. Tangible rewards, not that "feeling good" stuff. Not saying that doesn't matter or that it doesn't exist, but getting those tangible rewards is a sure way of feeling good. If you go through that content with the biggest reward being that feeling, that content will soon become a chore and the feeling will be long gone.

By limit respecs, do you mean Specialization respecs or item recalibration? If it's the latter, it's already pretty limiting, at least in comparison to the previous game. Not sure how much more limiting it can be before players decide it's just better to farm for more "god rolled" items than recalibrating those already farmed.

[Casughoul]

However, if opponents stats aren't increased, but ours is....isn't that the same thing in the end as increasing the opponents stats? I mean the end result would still be the same. We'd be underpowered somewhat, or by a lot, in comparison. It's not so much about opponents being inflated, as it is about how much are they inflated with each difficulty jump and archetype, in addition to the current build making mechanics and the lack of certain limits in that and the risk vs reward. .

The NPCs should have stats achievable by the players. In Challenge modes, the challenge would be to complete it at a disadvantage, poisoned, blind, low ammo, limited weapons, lowered stats.

This would mean that a Maxed Player would be equal to a Maxed NPC in standard mode. This would put the player on par and not have a repetition of ceiling raising which can send the balance of game play beyond recovery. Also, it will allow new players to be able to take on veteran players without being at a "gear" disadvantage aside from not having a specialized build. New players will be similar to Jacks and have balanced stats. Veterans will reduce some stats to increase others.

This suggestion is more of a generalization of how to make these types of games in the future and how to maybe modify the one currently. Although, the system as is probably doesn't support this suggestion in it's purest state. So some compromises will have to be made.

Instead of trying to rebalance things every time the ceiling is raised, don't raise the ceiling and you won't have this issue.

The inflation of stats comes from how you can potentially rise infinitely in stat power. You keep raising the ceiling and then you have more of a gap between new/casual players and veteran/hardcore players. Gameplay will feel different when going to normalized stats from either end. Then in non-normalized zones you will have extreme differences.

IMO, it shouldn't be stat based but skill and knowledge based. A player who may have a fresh character but has skill and knowledge of how to use tactics and a decent ability to use the control system shouldn't be out matched simply because of a stat difference.

An idiot with a 999K Damage weapon and 999K Armor will beat a genius with 1 damage weapon and 10 armor. It just doesn't make sense. (Much like that analogy.)

By limit respecs, do you mean Specialization respecs or item recalibration? If it's the latter, it's already pretty limiting, at least in comparison to the previous game. Not sure how much more limiting it can be before players decide it's just better to farm for more "god rolled" items than recalibrating those already farmed.

Well, in this game, there is no real point to respecs as you can max-out a specialization. I don't think specializations should be a thing the way they are and just allow all the specialization skills to be in trees that let you use them all at once and then limit the number of specialization points you can get. So you can't just max out everything and you have to select and build how you want.

It's really irrelevant because the system currently doesn't support it. It was more in general that you don't have a build with specializations but it's purely gear building. Gear building you don't really need a respec because you can just farm those "god rolled" items. Recalibrating unlimitedly is fine as long as the maximum is reduced from the natural roll. This means that even though you recalibrated a piece of gear to suit your build, there is still a natural rolled piece that has the maximum stats.

[Akuhdemiks]

You guys do know we are playing a Looter/grinder. Interms of enemy difficulty they are basically using a method that has worked and been successful for years(since diablo 1)

Thats not to say there isn't but I don't think enemies having to much hp etc... Is the main issue. Currently I feel on par/of equal power to the enemies they kill me just has fast as I do. The issue im having is wkth the AI and the shear number of mechanics you have to deal with at the same time.

[zachzon77]

It's not how Rpgs are supposed to work, if npcs level every time you do, levels are pointless. Only gear matters, and time put in apparently. Not skill. Super lame way to make a game.

[Akuhdemiks]

It's not how Rpgs are supposed to work, if npcs level every time you do, levels are pointless. Only gear matters, and time put in apparently. Not skill. Super lame way to make a game.

You do know also every online rpg out there are putting in scaling mechsnics to bring lower lvl enemies up to the player lvl. Its what players have wanted for a long time as old zones/content become pointless if enemies are still low lvl.

[MetaI_Phoenix]

You guys do know we are playing a Looter/grinder. Interms of enemy difficulty they are basically using a method that has worked and been successful for years(since diablo 1)

In Diablo 2 it wasn't the case that literally every mob could take you down in 1 second while taking 7 seconds to kill them. Your armor value actually made a difference. You could increase your armor and an enemy couldn't kill you as fast.

I feel in Div2 it doesn't mean anything. Lots of us are reporting (and proving) that having 200,000 armor vs having 150,000 armor is insignificant. You will still die in about 1-2 seconds, regardless of the 50,000 increase in a stat (armor) that is our defense against basic kinetic impacts (bullets).

I saw at least one suggestion that was implemented in div1 with the status effects, etc. This happened when underground came out and it definitely made things more interesting. I believe the new support style set was introduced at the same time and it gave us a reason to actually use and coordinate some build options and strategies.

(Of course so did some of the incursions on higher diffilculty. But let's not go there)

[Akuhdemiks]

In Diablo 2 it wasn't the case that literally every mob could take you down in 1 second while taking 7 seconds to kill them. Your armor value actually made a difference. You could increase your armor and an enemy couldn't kill you as fast.

I feel in Div2 it doesn't mean anything. Lots of us are reporting (and proving) that having 200,000 armor vs having 150,000 armor is insignificant. You will still die in about 1-2 seconds, regardless of the 50,000 increase in a stat (armor) that is our defense against basic kinetic impacts (bullets).

I saw at least one suggestion that was implemented in div1 with the status effects, etc. This happened when underground came out and it definitely made things more interesting. I believe the new support style set was introduced at the same time and it gave us a reason to actually use and coordinate some build options and strategies.

(Of course so did some of the incursions on higher diffilculty. But let's not go there)

Its a matter of opionion and personal experience. Personally i havent felt this I kill all enimies just as fast as they kill me accepte the tanks.
In terms of ppl reporting and prooving, there are just as many saying the oposite. Im on niether side I dont think everything is fine but I also think ppl are focusing in the wrong place as enemy hp and scaling dosent seem to be the problem.

On armor i agree something aint right there as there are times where ill stand up and tank 3-4 reds for a good 5-6 secs and othe times where its instant death.

Now usinh diablo as a comparison was a poor choice on my part as its for the most part a purly melee looter so player balance would be different.

[Casughoul]

Actually, this method of scaling isn't classic RPG it is more on par with JPRG and MMORPG. True RPG all opponents will be equal to the player or lesser. Rarely will you face an opponent that is above your power unless facing a boss/leader or the game is trying to kill/curb your advancement.

True RPGs the player can attain the power that any other being can possess.

The problem is that video games are trying to keep the player playing and they are using a model of inflation, raising the ceiling when the majority reaches that ceiling. Inflation never works in the end. It crashes economies.

[Akuhdemiks]

Actually, this method of scaling isn't classic RPG it is more on par with JPRG and MMORPG. True RPG all opponents will be equal to the player or lesser. Rarely will you face an opponent that is above your power unless facing a boss/leader or the game is trying to kill/curb your advancement.

True RPGs the player can attain the power that any other being can possess.

The problem is that video games are trying to keep the player playing and they are using a model of inflation, raising the ceiling when the majority reaches that ceiling. Inflation never works in the end. It crashes economies.

First we will get this out of the way, Divison isn't an "RPG". Its a looter(shooter) with some rpg elements. First and for most its a looter game. Also im not sure what rpgs your playing but almost all rpgs Ive played since 1998(when i got into gaming) your battling up against enemies slighty more powerful then you(minus just general enimies which are slightly weaker).

Which I see the same here in division all enemies are weaker then me by alot even most elites. The issue is the shear number of them and their mechanics all happening at the same time that is the issue not the scaling.

EDIT: This can't be comfirmed with out testing but with my current experience with the game. If they removed the part of the AI which makes enemies constantly rush/flank. Would change the difficulty completly and make it to easy. Im not saying thay should be done, but i am saying that mechanics that are what need to be looked at. Cause right now aside from the Heavy tanks there isn't really any enemies that take more then a mag to kill. (Unless you miss (random percent incoming) 80% of your shot. Even then when I am on point and acctually hiting almost all my shots bairly takes over half a mag(while using extended mag).)