Jiang Jung needs hard nerfs | Forums

[Siegfried-Z]

Just think about it now but in the last Setmyx tier list JJ is A tier un duel and the best char in Dom.

And this is made for competitive play on PC.

I dont care about these list but i know some people do, so, just let it here ..

[Sweaty_Sock]

I was wrong... to steal & change a phrase, this character it master of all trades, jack of none

[Knight_Raime]

Having the possibility To avoid a punish is still a big advantage compare to most others.

I am not talking about his side dodge efficiency but show that he has a lot of options. Do you think it is logic that a Tank got the side dodge attacks with the most options ? Plus HA and 25dmg.

I've never said he cant be punish. I parry or crushing counter him often enough on his 400ms softfeint. But it doesn't change that he is too strong.

You should also stop to suggest having a different opinion than you mean To be "a normal player who dont know what he is doing". This is just a friendly advice.

I think the real "disconnect" came To the fact you're talking about a PC duel situation while i've already mention i talk about a Console 4v4 one which is very, very different.

I can agree with you JJ is a weak pick in Duel on PC and an average one in duel on Console.

But on console 4v4, he is a pain. There are no others words. And not only because of the feat as you said.

I just dont get why the Guy has dmg above all others.
Do you know the reason why his light chain is 38 dmg, Zone is 28, and side dodge 25 ? Because i dont . It is only unfair.

I think he should have his bash improved, it would help him in 1v1.
But his light should be 15-18 max, Zone should be 20 and side dodge 20. Plus his heavy finisher should be UB only from the top or his aoe should be reduce. It would reduce his 4v4 toxicity.

Currently you can be hit by a JJ ub while you didn't even saw him on your screen in some situations.

I am not someone who ask for nerfs. I would only say BP should have a bigger recovery on sb and less light finisher dmg. But overall i am not asking for some nerfs on this forum.
I dont even want it for Conq, Zerk and others S tiers.
But JJ is my exception. Because he is just ridiculous currently. It is what i call easy mode to play him.

As i've already said and continue to state he has good defense/offense at range. It's only when you close the gap against him that he becomes incredibly bad. I'm not exactly sure why you keep assuming i'm calling him garbage as a whole. I'm not. Nor have I ever stated that in this thread. You can try to scapegoat my current pc dwelling all you want. It's meangingless. I have not even a days worth of playtime on pc. Majority of my play experience was on xbox one and these opinions i've had about JJ have been the same since then. They didn't suddenly change because of platform change. I've also very clearly stated in this very thread when i'm talking about what. I'm not only speaking about duels.

I don't have an answer to his why his damage is the way it is. Merely stated that I personally don't see it as a problem considering how poor his offense is and his lack of choice reaction pressure. If the devs nerfed his damage I wouldn't care. If they leave it alone I wouldn't care. My issue (against him) has 100% been soothing mist. Playing him is un-enjoyable to me because of how terrible his mix ups are. I completely understand why he's considered one of the best if not the best 4v4 hero currently. But imo that doesn't mean he's a problem character.

[Knight_Raime]

Raime you are coming across as more and more pretentious with how you talk about what can and cant be done. Literally nothing you discussed in that last post is true with regards to console, and console players do deserve consideration for balance discussions. Your long list of assuming people have excellent reaction speed (which is pretty much what your whole post boils down too) doesnt tell us anything because literally the whole cast of the rest of the heroes also have those same things.

Basically using your rationale i could conclude berserker has no offense. Because all his stuff is slower than 500ms except for a predictable side light (since the pre move has to also be a heavy from the other side or the combo fails)

Which is of course bloody stupid.

Also all of those other unblockables you call useless? They force a reaction being unblockable and can be feinted so that makes no sense.

Again with the rationale you used I could now conclude that the only characters with "offense" in your terms are.... nuxia and orochi for their light spamming.... yay and maybe people with bashes so bp warden amd conq????

Seriously your logic makes no sense in the above post. You state one thing and then conclude with the opposite of what most players would understand from the data.

I played console for basically my entire for honor experience barring the last 2 months ish. I don't even have a days play time on pc. Console is a poor argument and i'll not get into a debate over it yet again. And no, you are either stretching my words on purpose or you don't actually understand. Either way, If good reaction time was all you needed to be a good player in FH things would be massively different.
Further more if you think you can shut away a zerk with pure reactions only then you REALLY don't understand zerks kit and why he's so good.

Just because an unblockable is feintable doesn't mean it automatically forces a reaction. Take warden's unblockable top heavy finisher for example. It's recovery numbers and how late you can delay the feint mean you realistically can't GB it ever. However it's still considered rather "poor" in high tier play. Not because you have god reactions at that level. But because it has poor late side tracking. Meaning instead of trying to decide if they're going to commit for a parry you simply wait till they can't feint out of it and then dodge and get a free GB since they're in recovery.

Overall your reply doesn't actually disprove anything i've stated. So i'll restate my "view" on JJ in a short and concise manner. JJ is a strong 4's hero. Probably the best at this current time. His strengths are his range/aoe presence, good damage profile, and decent defensive capabilities. His cons being no pressure in regards to choice reaction mix ups. No OOS pressure. falls apart if he can't space someone out. Sifu's becomes a dead move in cqc. I could care less if they nerf his damage or leave it as is. In my opinion it's not a big deal either way. It won't shift his viability in either direction as his power is more tied to spacing/aoe presence than actual damage. I'd love it if they could do something about his two dash mix ups to make them actually viable in a 1v1 situation. And i'd love it if they maybe gave him another option out of sifu to go along side his zone. So that his sifu could be a bit safer to use in cqc.

[Knight_Raime]

Just think about it now but in the last Setmyx tier list JJ is A tier un duel and the best char in Dom.

And this is made for competitive play on PC.

I dont care about these list but i know some people do, so, just let it here ..

You have to keep in mind that the current tier list for duel is entirely based around 2 facts. Bashes got easier to avoid (which is being fixed) and timing a round out after getting a health lead is considered to be a very viable and worthwhile strat. As I already said JJ is very good if he can keep his opponent spaced. This applies even in a 1v1 situation. So that's why he's where he is at for duels. Plus his decent damage profile. This doesn't mean JJ is actually a good duel character. One need only look at the fact that Lawbringer is now considered "top tier" in duels. And again it's not because LB is a great duelist. It's because he's good at stalling things out.

If you're going to use competitive based material you should probably at least try to learn why said things are being stated before trying to use them as material in a discussion.

[Siegfried-Z]

As i've already said and continue to state he has good defense/offense at range. It's only when you close the gap against him that he becomes incredibly bad. I'm not exactly sure why you keep assuming i'm calling him garbage as a whole. I'm not. Nor have I ever stated that in this thread. You can try to scapegoat my current pc dwelling all you want. It's meangingless. I have not even a days worth of playtime on pc. Majority of my play experience was on xbox one and these opinions i've had about JJ have been the same since then. They didn't suddenly change because of platform change. I've also very clearly stated in this very thread when i'm talking about what. I'm not only speaking about duels.

I don't have an answer to his why his damage is the way it is. Merely stated that I personally don't see it as a problem considering how poor his offense is and his lack of choice reaction pressure. If the devs nerfed his damage I wouldn't care. If they leave it alone I wouldn't care. My issue (against him) has 100% been soothing mist. Playing him is un-enjoyable to me because of how terrible his mix ups are. I completely understand why he's considered one of the best if not the best 4v4 hero currently. But imo that doesn't mean he's a problem character.

I've never said your opinion is JJ is garbage.
At the end we both says he is the strongest 4v4 char.
But it looks fine to you, not To me. That's all.

I like fair things.
So i dont care if a char is very strong, we always gonna have a first and a last char. But my opinion is JJ is the one for bad reasons, like his dmg above others, his abnormal aoe and feats. This is not fair.

You have to keep in mind that the current tier list for duel is entirely based around 2 facts. Bashes got easier to avoid (which is being fixed) and timing a round out after getting a health lead is considered to be a very viable and worthwhile strat. As I already said JJ is very good if he can keep his opponent spaced. This applies even in a 1v1 situation. So that's why he's where he is at for duels. Plus his decent damage profile. This doesn't mean JJ is actually a good duel character. One need only look at the fact that Lawbringer is now considered "top tier" in duels. And again it's not because LB is a great duelist. It's because he's good at stalling things out.

If you're going to use competitive based material you should probably at least try to learn why said things are being stated before trying to use them as material in a discussion.

I'm pretty aware for what reasons this list is made like that. That's why i've said i dont care about these list.

But as you always use the competitive bracket as a mirror of the state of balance, this is it.

[Vendelkin]

Im with sieg here. Raime im aware you think hes strong. And some of the stuff you provide such as your analysis of his side dodges vulneribility is good.

Also an admittance i play primarily aramusha in duels. Who has the slowest in lock movement speed in the game. This means (although i have not tested it myself yet and may later today) that corning or grtting a jj into cc is a near impossibility for me, which may explain my strong feelings on the subject.

With regards to sieg you are again reading into his knowledge incorrectly assuming he doesnt understand the tier list.

And as far as your response to me, of course i dont think those things about berserker. I know he has good offense. But using your style of rhetoric i could claim he doesnt. You focus on one or 2 vulnerabilities and use it as an excuse to prevent a nerf connected to an entirely different issue. Every hero has vulnerabilities. Even BP. Bringing up JJs dodge when we are talking about his over tuned dmg is similar in nature to bringing up Black priors bulwark counters gb weakness in an attempt to defend the glitches involved in his bash spam.

You are still concluding differently from what most people would say. You provide a lot of very good evidence and analysis to make your statements but you conclude still vastly different things, AND you always immediatly assume you know more than whoever you are talking to. Often admittingly you do know more thats evident, but man stop being so arrogant. And in all the subjects you've mentioned today i will have you know i was already aware of. Yes even jjs dodge weakness to gb.

Jj has good offense. His damage is above standard in many areas and it needs a nerf.

Btw if you read my musha reworks youll notice i call for a damage nerf for him too. I would love more versatility in his kit and would happily accept dmg nerfs in return. Im not just saying jj dmg is high cause i hate him. Im saying it cause its a fact just like its a fact that mushas dmg is high. And btw musha has a lot less going for him in a duel imo than JJ

Your logic style has been red herring this whole time in our debate. We talk about dmg and options you talk about vulnerabilities and defense and use it as an excuse to keep his damage where its at.

I have never asked for a nerf to his movements or versatility. I have asked for a nerf to his dmg and sometimes to his stam gain in sifu. But i refute your style of logic because it is not connected to that issue. (Directly at least)

One final admission. I did bring up some of his movements first. It was in response to raime saying he had no offence which i still strongly disagree with. I should have back then just said. "IMO his offence is strong and lets talk about his dmg which is above the norm for his relative speeds and advantages" if we can somehow bring it back lets talk more about that

[Sweaty_Sock]

Just to add - yes bashes going back to how they used to be, however his dodge attack has some extended attribute that means... he functioned like this BEFORE the bash debarcle

Edit: I don't like calling for a nerf hammer but @ Raime, I have issues picking up characters I know nothing about and smacking rep 48+ mains

[Knight_Raime]

I've never said your opinion is JJ is garbage.
At the end we both says he is the strongest 4v4 char.
But it looks fine to you, not To me. That's all.

I like fair things.
So i dont care if a char is very strong, we always gonna have a first and a last char. But my opinion is JJ is the one for bad reasons, like his dmg above others, his abnormal aoe and feats. This is not fair.



I'm pretty aware for what reasons this list is made like that. That's why i've said i dont care about these list.

But as you always use the competitive bracket as a mirror of the state of balance, this is it.

I can agree his feats are too good. Damage I can't really say either way. I don't often look into risk versus reward from a numbers perspective let alone compare it to other kits. All I can say is I don't care if it's left alone or nerfed. Wouldn't change what his kit is to me.

[Knight_Raime]

Im with sieg here. Raime im aware you think hes strong. And some of the stuff you provide such as your analysis of his side dodges vulneribility is good.

Also an admittance i play primarily aramusha in duels. Who has the slowest in lock movement speed in the game. This means (although i have not tested it myself yet and may later today) that corning or grtting a jj into cc is a near impossibility for me, which may explain my strong feelings on the subject.

With regards to sieg you are again reading into his knowledge incorrectly assuming he doesnt understand the tier list.

And as far as your response to me, of course i dont think those things about berserker. I know he has good offense. But using your style of rhetoric i could claim he doesnt. You focus on one or 2 vulnerabilities and use it as an excuse to prevent a nerf connected to an entirely different issue. Every hero has vulnerabilities. Even BP. Bringing up JJs dodge when we are talking about his over tuned dmg is similar in nature to bringing up Black priors bulwark counters gb weakness in an attempt to defend the glitches involved in his bash spam.

You are still concluding differently from what most people would say. You provide a lot of very good evidence and analysis to make your statements but you conclude still vastly different things, AND you always immediatly assume you know more than whoever you are talking to. Often admittingly you do know more thats evident, but man stop being so arrogant. And in all the subjects you've mentioned today i will have you know i was already aware of. Yes even jjs dodge weakness to gb.

Jj has good offense. His damage is above standard in many areas and it needs a nerf.

Btw if you read my musha reworks youll notice i call for a damage nerf for him too. I would love more versatility in his kit and would happily accept dmg nerfs in return. Im not just saying jj dmg is high cause i hate him. Im saying it cause its a fact just like its a fact that mushas dmg is high. And btw musha has a lot less going for him in a duel imo than JJ

Your logic style has been red herring this whole time in our debate. We talk about dmg and options you talk about vulnerabilities and defense and use it as an excuse to keep his damage where its at.

I have never asked for a nerf to his movements or versatility. I have asked for a nerf to his dmg and sometimes to his stam gain in sifu. But i refute your style of logic because it is not connected to that issue. (Directly at least)

One final admission. I did bring up some of his movements first. It was in response to raime saying he had no offence which i still strongly disagree with. I should have back then just said. "IMO his offence is strong and lets talk about his dmg which is above the norm for his relative speeds and advantages" if we can somehow bring it back lets talk more about that

I can agree that sometimes my responses come off wrong because of how short they might be. I try to summarize because i've been called out more than once for "wordy replies." If length is not an issue for you then next time we disagree on something I can do my best to tackle parts individually and be more detailed to what I mean that way my sentiment isn't misunderstood. At the end of it all you and Sig think he has some kind of effective offense. I disagree. What I see as offense isn't what he's got. You both seem to think his damage profile is a problem and want it changed. I'm indifferent to it.

I wasn't attempting to explain why his damage should stay as is. Merely stating due to how I see his kit I don't think how much damage he does is really relevant to his overall strengths.