Jiang Jung needs hard nerfs | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

Keep in mind that his dmg are above all others for an unknown reason on his Light chain, Zone and side dodge attack. That's not normal.

His side dodge is slow, but no others side dodge attacks got so many mix up options and he has HA on.

Plus his insane aoe and HA or UB on all heavies in any direction. JJ is just a pain for the game in 4v4 console (which represent most of the games played).

His side dodge has one mix up option which is the 400ms soft feint light. Which always comes from the opposite angle and is telegraphed by the long dodge attack. It's actually fairly easy to react to because of this. His dodge attacks only get HA after 600ms? into their attack. So it's not very practical to use as trading. And you kind of deserve to eat the hit if you're not only reacting that late but wrongly reacting to the situation. Again as i've stated JJ is far less effective the closer you are to him. JJ of course if he's a good player can maintain spacing making it difficult to handle him.

I'm not denying that JJ has some positive things. I am just pointing out that he has a very clear weakness that doesn't require godly reactions to exploit. And that because of that and his general lack of offensive play he's not a balance problem. Just his feat.

[Vendelkin]

His side dodge has one mix up option which is the 400ms soft feint light. Which always comes from the opposite angle and is telegraphed by the long dodge attack. It's actually fairly easy to react to because of this. His dodge attacks only get HA after 600ms? into their attack. So it's not very practical to use as trading. And you kind of deserve to eat the hit if you're not only reacting that late but wrongly reacting to the situation. Again as i've stated JJ is far less effective the closer you are to him. JJ of course if he's a good player can maintain spacing making it difficult to handle him.

I'm not denying that JJ has some positive things. I am just pointing out that he has a very clear weakness that doesn't require godly reactions to exploit. And that because of that and his general lack of offensive play he's not a balance problem. Just his feat.

I get a lot of what you are saying from my experience fighting him. Do keep in mind console players tho and also

" his general lack of offensive play he's not a balance problem."

Wat.... seriously jj has good offensive play. Lights are decently fast follow ups. Hyper armor openers. Unblockables available on whiff or second hit predictable or not. A predictable but existing bash mixup that forces player movement and can be hard feint to gb for side dodgers. Good feint windows for all his manuevers with sifu cancel still available for offensive spam play.

Jj has very good offensive play. No idea how you could conclude that he is a defensive character. Especially with his numbers.

Also his side dodge having one mix up.... how many other heroes are there that have ANY mix up in dodge attacks? It may be mostly reactable but its not a weak tool either. The trade aspect is weak on them but the extended dodge property makes reaching those HA frames pretty safe too. I mean seriously. You bait a berserker, orochi, pk into their side dodge attack and its an easy parry. Baiting a jj means you still have to think or be on your toes or he will still win the moment.

[Siegfried-Z]

His side dodge has one mix up option which is the 400ms soft feint light. Which always comes from the opposite angle and is telegraphed by the long dodge attack. It's actually fairly easy to react to because of this. His dodge attacks only get HA after 600ms? into their attack. So it's not very practical to use as trading. And you kind of deserve to eat the hit if you're not only reacting that late but wrongly reacting to the situation. Again as i've stated JJ is far less effective the closer you are to him. JJ of course if he's a good player can maintain spacing making it difficult to handle him.

I'm not denying that JJ has some positive things. I am just pointing out that he has a very clear weakness that doesn't require godly reactions to exploit. And that because of that and his general lack of offensive play he's not a balance problem. Just his feat.

JJ can also hard feint his side dodge for whatever he wants to. So he has a lots of options on his dodge. While most others side dodge attacks have zero options and once you input it, you get punished if you make a wrong read.

He is the best and easiest 4v4 char untill his dmg, aoe and feats got reduced.

[Darkmight_cz]

Man, winrate matrix is just statistics, they collecting information from all people or from ptalinum and above! It is stupid, most of people even on platinum and even on diamond are noobs, noobies which don't know how to play, of course JJ will be strong if you missing lights and don't know how to deal with his moves.

A diamond player dont even know how to play ? You're wrong. Because if it would be true then average player would be Master and decent player GM?
Bronze players are newbies who dont know how to play. Silver and gold are average. Plat and Diamond are decent players. Then Master is high level and GM top level.

And Btw, what is the purpose to say it is just statistics? It's like saying "it is just maths, it doesn't proove anything in anyway by A + B no".

Of course these stats are not perfecly made but they still show some true things. JJ is a good example.

Exactly this +1

[Knight_Raime]

I get a lot of what you are saying from my experience fighting him. Do keep in mind console players tho and also

" his general lack of offensive play he's not a balance problem."

Wat.... seriously jj has good offensive play. Lights are decently fast follow ups. Hyper armor openers. Unblockables available on whiff or second hit predictable or not. A predictable but existing bash mixup that forces player movement and can be hard feint to gb for side dodgers. Good feint windows for all his manuevers with sifu cancel still available for offensive spam play.

Jj has very good offensive play. No idea how you could conclude that he is a defensive character. Especially with his numbers.

Also his side dodge having one mix up.... how many other heroes are there that have ANY mix up in dodge attacks? It may be mostly reactable but its not a weak tool either. The trade aspect is weak on them but the extended dodge property makes reaching those HA frames pretty safe too. I mean seriously. You bait a berserker, orochi, pk into their side dodge attack and its an easy parry. Baiting a jj means you still have to think or be on your toes or he will still win the moment.

His lights are 500ms. Those are blocked especially if someone buffers the input. At best their okay interrupt options in 4's. But JJ doesn't have any pressing choice reaction mix ups. So defending against his lights are not hard. Openers that have armor are usually only good in 4's. In his case they're alright. But you can't always go for a trade with them because you'll just get baited and parried. His unblockable zone is the only threat he has unblockable wise. The rest are very easily reacted to. His side dodge attack and his forward dodge attack are both too slow to toss out and then feint to GB. If someone is dodging in a way where that actually works they're playing poorly. They're too slow to actually force a reaction. His dodge forward in particular can be avoided on one dodge timing that allows you to react to whatever he does after the soft feint kick or hard feint. And his side dodge is too slow to be a reactionary dodge feint. If you start that up and i'm within GB range you're screwed.

I say he's a defensive hero because he plays best at his effective range. Has dodge into sifu's. and the ability to cancel some moves/recoveries. All of that goes out the window if I close the gap. You can't use sifu's to cancel recovery or moves because i'll GB you. And your dodge attack even if you feint it will still net a GB for the opponent if they have decent reaction times. The only thing JJ can do against someone in his face is to try to bait a parry with a hard feint or try to interrupt someone's mix up with a random light or zone. His offense is severely limited in close range.

The HA frames on his moves are basically pointless in a 1v1 setting. because their 600ms into the attack. And attacking JJ out of his dodge is never the proper reaction even in a gank/ group situation. You're always wanting to bait a sifu's/dodge use for a GB setup. Incorrect. If I heavy feint into GB on prediction or reaction to JJ who starts a dodge attack he's GBed. The speed of his attack dictates that he has a high GB vulnerability window. If you commit to the dodge attack I GB it in start up. If you input and then feint I catch you in your recovery after a feint. and if I feint and GB as a prediction I GB you in dodge start up.

JJ can also hard feint his side dodge for whatever he wants to. So he has a lots of options on his dodge. While most others side dodge attacks have zero options and once you input it, you get punished if you make a wrong read.

He is the best and easiest 4v4 char untill his dmg, aoe and feats got reduced.

Which does nothing other than maybe save him from a parry punish. The only option he has besides his dodge attack soft feint is dodge into sifus. This lets you avoid something on the level of dodge into unlock roll I frame wise. But again you can't do that safely in cqc situations with JJ. Which was my point. JJ is severely limited in close range. It's only when he keeps range on his opponents that his kit actually shines for 1v1 situations.

I don't know why you guys seem to think a feintable dodge attack means he can't be punished. Maybe this is the huge disconnect people talk about when it concerns normal play versus play where people know what their doing. I'll restate. JJ's dodge attack is slow. Attack speeds dictate your GB vulnerability. The slower the attack the bigger window someone can GB you for an untechable GB. You can be GBed at any point with anything in the game unless the move has zero vulnerability. No moves like that exist. You can be GBed in the start up of your dodge even if it's just an empty dodge. And if you feint something you still enter a period of recovery. All of this means you will be punished by a person for attempting to use your dodge attack in gb range regardless if you input and then feint immediately or you try to feint on reaction.

[Siegfried-Z]

Which does nothing other than maybe save him from a parry punish. The only option he has besides his dodge attack soft feint is dodge into sifus. This lets you avoid something on the level of dodge into unlock roll I frame wise. But again you can't do that safely in cqc situations with JJ. Which was my point. JJ is severely limited in close range. It's only when he keeps range on his opponents that his kit actually shines for 1v1 situations.

I don't know why you guys seem to think a feintable dodge attack means he can't be punished. Maybe this is the huge disconnect people talk about when it concerns normal play versus play where people know what their doing. I'll restate. JJ's dodge attack is slow. Attack speeds dictate your GB vulnerability. The slower the attack the bigger window someone can GB you for an untechable GB. You can be GBed at any point with anything in the game unless the move has zero vulnerability. No moves like that exist. You can be GBed in the start up of your dodge even if it's just an empty dodge. And if you feint something you still enter a period of recovery. All of this means you will be punished by a person for attempting to use your dodge attack in gb range regardless if you input and then feint immediately or you try to feint on reaction.

Having the possibility To avoid a punish is still a big advantage compare to most others.

I am not talking about his side dodge efficiency but show that he has a lot of options. Do you think it is logic that a Tank got the side dodge attacks with the most options ? Plus HA and 25dmg.

I've never said he cant be punish. I parry or crushing counter him often enough on his 400ms softfeint. But it doesn't change that he is too strong.

You should also stop to suggest having a different opinion than you mean To be "a normal player who dont know what he is doing". This is just a friendly advice.

I think the real "disconnect" came To the fact you're talking about a PC duel situation while i've already mention i talk about a Console 4v4 one which is very, very different.

I can agree with you JJ is a weak pick in Duel on PC and an average one in duel on Console.

But on console 4v4, he is a pain. There are no others words. And not only because of the feat as you said.

I just dont get why the Guy has dmg above all others.
Do you know the reason why his light chain is 38 dmg, Zone is 28, and side dodge 25 ? Because i dont . It is only unfair.

I think he should have his bash improved, it would help him in 1v1.
But his light should be 15-18 max, Zone should be 20 and side dodge 20. Plus his heavy finisher should be UB only from the top or his aoe should be reduce. It would reduce his 4v4 toxicity.

Currently you can be hit by a JJ ub while you didn't even saw him on your screen in some situations.

I am not someone who ask for nerfs. I would only say BP should have a bigger recovery on sb and less light finisher dmg. But overall i am not asking for some nerfs on this forum.
I dont even want it for Conq, Zerk and others S tiers.
But JJ is my exception. Because he is just ridiculous currently. It is what i call easy mode to play him.

[rottmeister]

1 vs 1 no issues, can be gb'ed out A LOT

4 vs 4 never thought I'd be scared ganking someone

Everytime when we outnumber a JJ this is my initial response:

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Man's a crazy good antiganker

[Sweaty_Sock]

JJ has range, HP, mixups, speed, power & agility. I though his low stamina pool/high attack costs would be his balancing point (i.e. he chips away with effective attacks however has to watch his stamina) - problem is his OOS is gone before you can even blink and hes back at you again (he can control distance, so by the time you gap close his massive regen rate puts him back to 100%)

NOONE NEEDS HARD NERFS. He needs some tweaks, hardnerfs just ruin the game for people who want to play him - i'd suggest getting his stamina regen down or putting a pause on his OOS before it starts to regen to allow enough time to actually punish him.

[Vendelkin]

Raime you are coming across as more and more pretentious with how you talk about what can and cant be done. Literally nothing you discussed in that last post is true with regards to console, and console players do deserve consideration for balance discussions. Your long list of assuming people have excellent reaction speed (which is pretty much what your whole post boils down too) doesnt tell us anything because literally the whole cast of the rest of the heroes also have those same things.

Basically using your rationale i could conclude berserker has no offense. Because all his stuff is slower than 500ms except for a predictable side light (since the pre move has to also be a heavy from the other side or the combo fails)

Which is of course bloody stupid.

Also all of those other unblockables you call useless? They force a reaction being unblockable and can be feinted so that makes no sense.

Again with the rationale you used I could now conclude that the only characters with "offense" in your terms are.... nuxia and orochi for their light spamming.... yay and maybe people with bashes so bp warden amd conq????

Seriously your logic makes no sense in the above post. You state one thing and then conclude with the opposite of what most players would understand from the data.

[Sweaty_Sock]

Changed my mind, just vs'd another... why can he OOS on parry and yet regenerate his own so fast. He's got a perfectly balanced moveset for shinobi levels of HP...