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[Han-Singular]

To anyone who thinks Vortiger is not broken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6Mefnv0-xk

[Vakris_One]

To anyone who thinks Vortiger is not broken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6Mefnv0-xk

Which part of BarakYeet's notes are you referring to? He only alludes to one thing being broken and that's that Vort can feint his Bullwark stance on reaction to a heavy feint and still recover fast enough to be able to counter GB.

[Han-Singular]

and you think thats ok?

[Vakris_One]

and you think thats ok?

No, but without elaborating which part you're referring to it reads like you think everything Barak's video was showing is broken.

[Vendelkin]

canceling any recovery into bulwark is crazy. I've said this a bunch but people are so focused on his bash that they overlook the innate power of bulwark counter because "its too hard to pull off"

It's (not)literally 200x more effective and accessible than the aramushas counter.... but almost

Also did we try to do away with punishing other players for exterior players attacks? thats been a thing that they did to most counters so that first segment aslo bothers me, it needs to target only the exterior attacker.

Also that punish roll thing has happened to me multiple times in arcade mode. Its really irritating. not sure if OP but its not fun to not be allowed to disengage.
And the moment at 4:00 is nuts too. man i just don't know what to make of this guy. hes balanced in some ways, but some of his bugs/exploits whether intended or not just give him a huge advantage that most people don't even notice when examining his kit.

THere are a few thigns fishy about the dodges he shows tho in his video cause a lot of time we cant see his opponent or kensei load up a dodge attack.

[Han-Singular]

I think his ability to bulwark deflects is broken, not being able to punish his shield bash is broken, unlock superior blocking which was removed from valkyrie should not be available to Vortiger, even if it can be baited. 0ms bulwark feints are broken. dodging a light attack should not guarantee a shield bash which guarantees a light attack.

the list goes on.

[Klingentaenz3r]

canceling any recovery into bulwark is crazy. I've said this a bunch but people are so focused on his bash that they overlook the innate power of bulwark counter because "its too hard to pull off"

It's (not)literally 200x more effective and accessible than the aramushas counter.... but almost
.

Nah. I really don't think you could/should say it like that. As I've pointed out in your aramusha thread already aramusha's BB is much easier to pull off. That is because of two things: It activates quicker from neutral and since it can be used directly after being hit in order to counter the following chain attacks. That also includes 400 ms follow ups. Bulwark counter absolutely cannot compete in that regard. If you screw up your timing or if you get hit you won't get to enter bulwark to counter further hits unless you have a huge recovery time in between that allows you to enter bulwark stance OR you manage to block a chain heavy/enhanced light to go into it instantly. Bulwark Counter requires mostly a good read on the opponent who idealy sticks to his/her habits. BP needs to know the opponent and the player behind it for good usage of the bulwark counter and as pointed out before he has to look out for not getting hit himself.
Perhaps it seems easier for you atm if you face opponents that are that always tend to attack right away on their own once you finished yours. But these ppl are just slaves to their own habits and possibly don't know much about fighting and its rules in general. So they need some time to adjust but that will happen eventually - especially since BPs kit is very overseeable and does not provide many options for mixups.

But don't get me wrong bulwark counter is overall a strong move (especially with the amount of things you can counter and how safe that makes you -> deflect counter, shove on block counter), but it just applies to different situations than BB and where either is shining the other is not.

[Vendelkin]

Edited for simplification.
"Bulwark Counter requires mostly a good read on the opponent who idealy sticks to his/her habits. "
So does blade blockade everytime, especially in duels even mid chain.

I acknowledge very much they are different tools, but BladeBlockade is the MOST comparable existing tool any hero had to BP's BC thus it is the only ground we have upon for comparison metric wise.

recap.

Aramusha BB functionality can break a third hit of a light chain (which often gets feinted anyways) countering the second hit isn't reliable on console because of combinations of hit stun, buffering issues, and input lag.
And.... that's it. that's all the special functionality it gets other than the gimmick of being able to multi perform them on zones to show off. Also good luck getting one off in high tier play duels. (It happens of course)
Only guaranteed dmg from it is the ring the bell light.
Doesn't even give damage reduction IIRC.(but it might i really dont remember atm)
Is interuptible by bashes in gank.
Also most heroes dont even have a triple combo high speed light which is the only value it has in countering vs parries

BP's BW works always on block, but yeah same thing good luck getting it off in this method against high tier players.
Fast flows to prevent 50% of deflects
Works on unblockables (some of which can't be feinted)
Works on drop attacks
Works on bashes of all sorts (also many of which can't be feinted)
Fast flows from a block
Handles ganks via multi flip
Can counter bait by going into Bulwark and flickering out without recovery instead of going full into it.
Can wombo combo with varied different moves including a standard guard break from any team mate.
Always guarantees 30 damage
Can counter some moves and soft feints on the same timing. (Shaman raven feints and kensei little pommel tap for example, i havent tested jjs forward top heavy toe kick for timing but im jot sure about the timing on that one)
And it provides uninteruptible invulnerability (except to another bp bc)

Imo BP BC is far easier and safer to move into and employ in fights. It of course does still greatly suffer from baiting in duels, but:
Conservatively BP's BW counter works better on at least 5x the mixups and kit attacks compared to the aramusha. This calculaton can easily be done going through a move list. If counting moves it always successfully countered was the metric it would be OP for that measure alone.

[Klingentaenz3r]

I appreciate your efforts on editing your original post there.

Aramusha BB functionality can break a third hit of a light chain (which often gets feinted anyways) countering the second hit isn't reliable on console because of combinations of hit stun, buffering issues, and input lag

I cannot really speak for console gameplay on my own and I don't know with what kind of setup you are playing (concerning input lag), but AFAIK Prince Oreo (for me personally the best aramusha YT player known stylewise aside from anime expert who is performing really well even against tournament players) is playing on console too and according to him it seems to work there as well. Source: https://youtu.be/01kRT6XPVwM?t=356

Note again like I mentioned in my previous post in the other thread that you would have to mind your (intended or unintended) guard inputs as these can screw this up according to my own experience. So if you focus not on catching up with your block after being hit and instead use BB you should be fine - even on console - and hence have a much broader usage now for BB since it would not only be applicable for 3 chain combo lights as you say but every 1-2 combination.

As you could see in my post I was not out to point out all scenarios in which you could use BP BC vs BB but only emphazise that in my opinion BB seems to be easier to pull off as it is faster to activate from neutral and can be used instantly after being hit which are two scenarios that you constantly encounter in battle.

BC from neutral works in 4s well enough due to the chaotic nature there. In duels the stance gives it away and would only be successful on the unfamiliar eye or on who dedicated himself to a move that you would have to read and prepare yourself more in advance than BB (such as if the opponent likes to open a fight with a running or dashing attack).

What is left is for BP is baiting counter attacks by feinting or hoping for immediate responses after an exchange (habit based). Or blocking a chain and going fastfluent into BS to BC. For the last one again you need to block a heavy or an enhanced light in order to do so.

BTW on a sidenote on the deflects: To successfully counter a deflect you would need to be aware that your opponent might want to do that and therefore be ready to go into BS on read after that attack which is likely to be deflected. I don't think it can be done on reaction especially when they try to deflect your opening lights and naturally would tend to go for a followup (decision based reactions are much slower than habit-based).

Anyhow, if you for yourself think BC easier to pull off in battle - fine. However I would not say that it is in general the case.

[David_gorda]

Black prior is strong but fine. Zerk, Warden and conq is still better 1vs 1 and they havent received any nerfs.