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[Knight_Raime]

what a counter argument

As for all the rest, you keep saying that at least one of *insert move or feat here* is overtuned, whether it's damage, recovery or whatever, but that the rest is fine so I am wrong, well guess what? A hero is as strong as his strongest move (cf the glad zone you mentionned).

Who cares if 2 out of 3 feats are trash? If one feat is broken, everyone will pick it all the time.

You also keep telling he is S tier because of bugs, that doesnt help your case because:
1- Bugs are never fixed, JJ's animations still wait a nerf
2-The fact there are tiers means there are balance issues, which means I am right, so why even make a counterpoint
3-because he is good because of bugs means its fine? "yeah he is top tier right now but you know IF it was not for bugs he would only be bottom S tier" Who cares about if ? Currently he is a toxic headache rampaging through the matchmaking

As for your last point: "Uh nope" again, what a counterpoint. And I didnt talk about goki's new kit, I just said it is unfun to play vs 4 gokis

Quick shoutout to the "competitive play' didnt even know there was one lmao. I stopped at that tournamanet that a guy who hadnt played in a month won spamming unlock exploit as nobuchi. I'll refer to views on twitch, and just assume what they do in said "pro scene" is not some dogma to follow blindly

And again, thanks to compare so much to JJ, conq, zerk and co to remind us all vortiger will never get nerfed in the slighest. Kinda unlukcy you keep saying that I'm wrong because he will get fix while you remind us of the absence of nerfs in the past year

So there you go, I just usually don'"t bother answering when somebody is based and wrong, but you put in a lot of effort in this one

Telling someone they're either stupid or biased if they disagree isn't an argument. It's behaving like a child. In hindsight I should have just ignored it like I did with the rest of your attitude.
None of his feats are broken. Which is why I referred you to looking into what competitive 4's is like to see what makes or breaks a feat being viable.
JJ's animation problem was because they sped up his lights pre release but didn't change the animation. Causing players to actually take damage before the game would visually indicate this. That was fixed. If you have an issue with the animation itself that's a seperate issue. But the specific issue that was being talked about and being promised to be fixed was fixed.
Nothing is perfectly balanced. Tiers are made for literally any pvp based game that has competitive interest so I don't get your point here.
If you actually read what I said I never defended the bugs and said they should be addressed. I also said I was fine with him taking a damage nerf.
Because explaining why launch centurion was more of a problem than launch BP i'd have an even longer post which I already get **** for.
And it ultimately would have been wasted effort anyway as you didn't actually disprove anything I said. Where as I at least bothered to quote the parts I was responding to for your argument.
But if you really want me to explain and you'll actually listen i'd be more than willing to explain.
Yeah using every advantage possible to win is how tournaments go. Unlock tech was not banned from tournaments because it was hard to police. Not saying unlock tech was fair/fine/balanced or whatever term you wana use to say I support it. The important thing here is you're completely devaluing a players potential simply because they did something you frown upon.

He does that. He did the same thing when Shaolin got his nerf.

My outrage was the removal of a bug which didn't impact average play and massively increased his kits potential viability for high tier play.
It was removed over the simple fact that it was not an intended effect. Which I find personally to be an ignorant thing to do when PLENTY of competitive games had unintended effects that were kept or even further polished to become real mechanics in sequel releases. Everything else they did to Shaolin was more or less fine by me.

Won't be a Prior thread without Raime defending what's an obviously broken character. 3 different bugs that guarantee 35 damage off a single light, 2 different flickers, extremely easy to use bash for high damage without any sort of risk.

But his bash is really one of the more tame ones, by the way.

Yes let's just completely ignore in my reply that I not only identified the bugs but called for them to be taken care of. Along with having his recovery on bash adjusted.
Let's just take another shot at some low hanging fruit because i'm not sitting right next to you *****ing constantly.
Grow the **** up.

[Knight_Raime]

I'm not her to bash any ones opinion as we all have an opinion. Just some things I've seen and have happened to me. When I play valk I've noticed when I dodge light BP sb he miss the bash but block my light even if I predict the sb. Recovery time is to high for me to punish him for missing. Also watched m. Goldie play BP and 28 seconds into the video he threw a light as the zerk ha heavy. The light hit the zerk while his heavy followed through but BP was able to block the heavy trade. You think both of those are fair and not broken? Not bashing BP but the fact that ubi let stuff like that go through.

I'll start recording my gameplay to leave evidence of this and show some of things ppl are saying are op in a 1v1qnd 4v4 situation to back some of the things I'm saying. BP feats in 4v4 are pretty broken though. Getting caught by 2 BP almost means death. Got shield bashed 5 times in a row till I finally got revenge then soon as I use it one takes my shield of and back to bash spam till death. Not to mention if I let an ub fly the other just flips me while they both hit me.

Dont get me wrong all this has happened by other 1vx situations but I dont have to worry about my revenge being took away as soon as I get it. Feel like ubi kinda over did that feat and should reduce the range significantly on how far he can shield and has to be near the person he is shielding but that could be said about all shield buffs. Just poor job on ubi for that one. Not hate to BP players just some stuff to take into consideration when ppl are saying he is op/broken.

Your first paragraph is a bit hard for me to understand. Are you stating that you tried to do Valk's dodge attack to dodge and then punish black prior's bash after light? If so Valk's dodge attack doesn't come out quickly. Most dodge attacks can come out 100ms into their dash but valk's is one of the few where the fastest it can come from a dodge is 300ms into it. Valk's dodge attack is capable of punishing the bash (from my testing anyway) but the timing is so tight on it that is basically a read instead of a reaction. I'm not super experienced with Valk but I wonder if going into her shield tackle and then feinting out of it would work to dodge his bash and GB him. You'll have to reword that part about the berzerker for me. Or better yet link me the video so I can see what happened and maybe provide an explanation. As for my stance on the bash recovery itself goes if I didn't make it clear in my original reply to the thread I do think the recovery should be nerfed so it's more consistently punishable.

I perfectly understand how his Oath breaker feat can feel broken for random pub matches. I often forget that the average experience of the game is different than the high tier experience. So let me specifically rephrase that here. Oath breaker is a good perk. Removing someone's extra defense is invaluable in a non optimized gank. And black prior being a hero where most of his offense is bash related majorly benefits from this because all it takes to fill someone's revenge bar is 5 bashes (iirc.) That being said I don't think it's as valuable just because revenge itself can be waited out/played around. It already has a heafty 2 minute timer which I personally think balances it's power in pub matches. As far as facing 2 BP's goes unfortunately that's just the reality of the situation we're in. having 2 of the same hero for basically anyone in the roster can cause a mess. Devs are hard against single picks though. So not much can be done.

I do want to have it on record again that I do understand the plight of average players, especially after having to use a sub par setup for a few days. That being said I tend to keep my mind more on the high tier side just because I truly believe the game has become much better over it's life span by continually trying to keep competitive in mind. I'm not saying every change done has been a good one. Nor am I pretending that they've ever done enough to actually appease the competitive community in any notable amount (imo.) But I do think they're on the right track. Even if they will stumble and make incomplete/poor changes along the way on occasion.

[EvoX.]

Yes let's just completely ignore in my reply that I not only identified the bugs but called for them to be taken care of. Along with having his recovery on bash adjusted.
Let's just take another shot at some low hanging fruit because i'm not sitting right next to you *****ing constantly.
Grow the **** up.

No, you literally said: ''His bash is really one of the more tame ones''. That's just typical Raime. Even the competitive reddit elitists are all in unison that the move is too good, and needs a nerf to be more in line with other bashes, so how the fuсk does a ''tame bash'' need a nerf? Do I really have to list all the bashes in the game for you to realize how idiotic your statement was? Let's see:

1. Warden - one of the possibly two bashes that are overall better than Prior's SB
2. Conq - very debatable. Conq has an additional SB game with the delayed bash, but he has nothing else. Keep your guard top for his only fast light and focus all your attention on dealing with the SB/GB mix-up. Prior? You have to divert between guarding, dodging the SB and/or guessing whether that's even the correct unblockable. Conq has one, Prior has 3. He has so much more pressure from neutral than Conq. When speaking strictly about their SB, Conq takes it, but overall, Prior's SB is made better by all the other things that it could be, by how much easier it is to land it due to the opponent's divided focus, and by how unpunishable it is.
3. Lawbringer's Shove - no. Light years worse.
4. Centurion's Kick and Jab - no. Do I even have to explain?
5. Gladiator's punches and Zone - no, and not better as an offensive tool due to high stamina cost and lower speed. Only becomes better when taking into account its use as a parry option select, which is not offensive pressure from neutral.
6. Warlord's Headbutt and CC - literally worse in all ways
7. Valk's soft feint SB - nowhere near as good
8. Highlander's Kick/Grab - nope. Avoided by dodging/rolling, lighting, baiting out, some character's backwalking when not OOS. They are also more difficult to access.
9. Shaman's tackle - no. Guaranteed guardbreak on miss.
10. Kensei's Pommel Strike - nope. Light on reaction to top heavy, option select with zone, lower guaranteed damage
11. Shugoki's headbutt and hug - no and avoidable by backdodging/rolling on reaction
12. Nobushi's kick - 600ms, telegraphed by preceding move, can not only be a guardbreak punish but a light parry one as well
13. Shinobi's kick - no. Slide Tackle is getting removed soon, so don't use that strawman example
14. Shaolin's kick - no. You don't dodge you eat 20 damage, you dodge and get a guaranteed guardbreak. A foreign concept to Prior.
15. JJ's shin kick - no. Just dodge as soon as you see the top heavy.
16. Tiandi's Palm Strike - no. Slower and easier to avoid, can not only be punished by a guardbreak but eventually by a light parry as well

So: one, possibly two bashes that are better out of ~16, unless I missed some? Truly, one of the more tame bashes in the game.

[Knight_Raime]

No, you literally said: ''His bash is really one of the more tame ones''. That's just typical Raime. Even the competitive reddit elitists are all in unison that the move is too good, and needs a nerf to be more in line with other bashes, so how the fuсk does a ''tame bash'' need a nerf, genius? Do I really have to list all the bashes in the game for you to realize how idiotic your statement was? Let's see:

1. Warden - one of the possibly two bashes that are overall better than Prior's SB
2. Conq - very debatable. Conq has an additional SB game with the delayed bash, but he has nothing else. Keep your guard top for his only fast light and focus all your attention on dealing with the SB/GB mix-up. Prior? You have to divert between guarding, dodging the SB and/or guessing whether that's even the correct unblockable. Conq has one, Prior has 3. He has so much more pressure from neutral than Conq. When speaking strictly about their SB, Conq takes it, but overall, Prior's SB is made better by all the other things that it could be, by how much easier it is to land it due to the opponent's divided focus, and by how unpunishable it is.
3. Lawbringer's Shove - no. Light years worse.
4. Centurion's Kick and Jab - no. Do I even have to explain?
5. Gladiator's punches and Zone - no, and not better as an offensive tool due to high stamina cost and lower speed. Only becomes better when taking into account its use as a parry option select, which is not offensive pressure from neutral.
6. Warlord's Headbutt and CC - literally worse in all ways
7. Valk's soft feint SB - nowhere near as good
8. Highlander's Kick/Grab - nope. Avoided by dodging/rolling, lighting, baiting out, some character's backwalking when not OOS. They are also more difficult to access.
9. Shaman's tackle - no. Guaranteed guardbreak on miss.
10. Kensei's Pommel Strike - nope. Light on reaction to top heavy, option select with zone, lower guaranteed damage
11. Shugoki's headbutt and hug - no and avoidable by backdodging/rolling on reaction
12. Nobushi's kick - 600ms, telegraphed by preceeding move, can not only be a guardbreak punish but a light parry one as well
13. Shinobi's kick - no. Slide Tackle is getting removed soon, so don't use that strawman example
14. Shaolin's kick - no. You don't dodge you eat 20 damage, you dodge and get a guaranteed guardbreak. A foreign concept to Prior.
15. JJ's shin kick - no. Just dodge as soon as you see the top heavy.
16. Tiandi's Palm Strike - no. Slower and easier to avoid, can not only be punished by a guardbreak but eventually by a light parry as well

So: one, possibly two bashes that are better out of ~16, unless I missed some? Truly, one of the more tame bashes in the game.

If you're going to quote me actually quote what I said. I specifically stated why I considered it tame. Which again to refresh your memory. It isn't protected by anything, it can't chain into anything off whiff, it can't be used from a side dodge, and it has poor tracking and range. Of course RIGHT NOW it feels arse because of a bug and short recovery. But there are far more factors to consider. But because you have such a damned hard on for those two specific things you're going to ignore anything else being said because i'm not being strictly negative about it like you are.

Conq's bash is strictly better. It has superior block protecting it. It can be used as a counter due to side dodge access. You can beat predict dodges by inputting a charge heavy when you dash and then dash for a buffered bash. You can charge the heavy and then either dash out for a buffered or delayed bash (both again having superior block) or soft feinting the charge heavy with his other bash.

Glad's is better in my opinion because of it's better tracking and reach on top of not being telegraphed from a dodge or an attack. Not by much. But I find it to be a little better.
You forgot valk's shield tackle. It's safer and shuts out pretty much most forms of offense and in most cases allows her to punish either with letting it go or feinting to GB. I'd say it's situationally better.

Kick into grab is easily beaten in a variety of ways yes. But it's covered up with other soft feints. Situationally can be even to the bash in terms of offense.
Shaman flickers her bash which means you have to punish it on read and has a 50 damage swing if she has bleed procced on someone. Situationally as good.

If you light in reaction to kensei's top heavy he can dash forward cancel to superior block it for a free GB. You can't reactionary shut out his pommel mix up. And his damage can be better through the mix up either GB into wall splat or the person looking to parry the light but eats the top heavy instead. Strictly speaking pommel on it's own is worse than the bash. But the mix up is strong. So I wouldn't completely count it out.

We're talking about how his bash is compared to every other bash in the game right now. You're strawmanning by saying it will be removed soon. They said that at least 1 season ago if not 2. And sense when do you believe the devs? Shaolin's kick is better because it can be lead into with better range and a 400ms light. and the kick itself has range and tracking. Meaning delaying the input actually does something for him compared to black prior.

Palm isn't telegraphed through an attack or a dodge like BP's. Palm can be followed up from any feint, light hit, guaranteed on crushing counter and can be followed up with either a light or a heavy. Beating the light with a dodge attack is tight timing for pretty much any dodge attack and best results in a trade. Or the heavy which has armor, does carry you range wise and is feintable. Meaning you can punish someone for attempting to whiff punish you. And if they are waiting to parry you can simply feint it into nothing, another palm, or his zone which has deceptively long range. IMO palm is better.

So it's really more like 9 are comparable. and 5 that are equal or marginally better.

[UbiInsulin]

Closing this thread, as it's becoming as much about egos as it is about Black Prior.

The concerns with BP's Shield Bash have definitely been mentioned to the team.