Vortiger thoughts + 3 vids and reasoning. I do want a real discussion. | Forums

[Vendelkin]

I see the same few people respond to every vortiger is fine/nerf vort thread @_@ I might be one of them. (Raime, Siegfried, feel free tho, in fact i invite your thoughts on what I write here) Please watch the 3 videos I link to before commenting as part of the discussion to follow I would like to be based upon seeing what occurs in those videos. You dont have to watch the whole videos just the segments I mention/highlight (infinite's video is 15 minutes long @_@ the segment I want people to see is only about 20 seconds. The other two videos the whole second half is interesting material) Also note that I play from the console perspective.

I am posting this thread twice cause I cant decide if it should be in discussion/feedback or general discussion. it will get seen more in general, but it BELONGS in suggestion/feedback probably

Anyways my thoughts after lots of discussion and video watching, and gameplay. 3 things should be fixed or tweaked.

#1. Guaranteed dmg after bash. Should either be reduced to 15, OR reduced to 18 but made a little more react-able with a longer GB vulnerability window after.

#2. Bulwark Counter. Also known as the evil flippy counter thing that everyone wants to bait out. It's a straight upgrade from aramushas full block in every existing metric, but I still think it only needs a minor tweak. It needs to lose the invulnerability and instead get high dmg reduction. it is a very powerful, but also bait-able tool. still even the recovery is better than Ara's full block @_@ Point: I would rather see Ara's full block reworked and maybe him given some kinda dodge attack than see bulwark counter nerfed a lot.

#3 Bulwark Counter and Drop Attacks. This one is debatable. Drop attacks were always risky, because of environ death, bad tracking, other weird issues. and Every hero had a tool to deal with it, rolling away. This required great skill and awareness and so too does the vortiger need great skill to bulwark counter time the drop attack, HOWEVER it changes the zip line game a little bit too much. there are certain spots in dominion and tribute matches where the vortiger now has a distinctive advantage. he can defend under the end of them in a way no player other have, which makes having at least one of him on your team in these game modes a must. In short because its too risky to drop attack him especially if he is safely standing in a zone by himself you have to drop off the zipline without attacking either a bit early and take damage, or drop off and get hit by the vort during your recovery (which I believe you do have some damage reduction during tho). Personally I think he should have to roll out of the way like everyone else. If he keeps his ability to counter drop attacks tho I want one thing to be changed. He SHOULD NOT immediately get a full revenge bar from surviving a drop attack.

Final thoughts: Vortiger + Shaman + Shugoki/Tiandi + any Bleeder may be the new meta team. Seriously watch the second listed vid to find out why i think this.

Also did you know Vortiger can counter another vortiger's counter and save his team-mate from damage? PRETTY COOL

Drop Attack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7uZirh9ddk starting at 9:26 really only 20 seconds necessary.

Wombo Combo's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zohx9vCRcc starting at 2:58

Nearly comprehensive list of bulwark counter capabilities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvLlsCPXyXM starting at 3:50 but you should just watch this whole one.

[Vendelkin]

*This post location reserved as a running list of people you should just ignore because they are trolling should this discussion reach that level*

[EvoX.]

There is no discussion to be had about your first point - the Shield Bash is too strong and too safe, quite possibly the most annoying and least fun move to play against in the game. If the damage were to stay 20 at 500ms speed, the recovery should be 800ms. Currently it's ludicrous.

As for the rest of his kit - meh. The character has lackluster, unintelligent design and an extremely bad flow, the closest thing he has to depth is light/heavy recovery cancel with bulwark and instant bulwark on block. Those allow for some stylish executes and force more caution and smart plays... that is, if any Prior player had any reason to use anything other than neutral SB and the light/SB exploit. I don't think he should be fully invulnerable while in his counter, either, but that will border on overnerfing him.

What definitely needs to happen with the character:

1. Increase recovery of a missed SB
2. Remove blocked light confirming an SB on an OOS opponent
3. Remove successful light confirming an SB on a late guard switch

Those are the 3 things that are just plain dumb: they either did not playtest him at all or intentionally left them in to promote a broken character and get more money. Either way, all 3 should be fixed.

[Vendelkin]

Im fairly certain that 2 and 3 of your points Evo will be happening. Any opinions on my #2 and #3?

As for your number one i agree with it and i think at this point most people also agree with it at least as far as it being a problem.

[Mia.Nora]

I have been away from the game and forums a while, after a week of playing with/against BP I can certainly say FH devs haven't learned their lesson in the slightest.

As much as a chain is as strong as its weakest link, a hero is as strong as its strongest move. I hear tons of people saying "he is balanced, aside from his bash". Well genius guess what, all BPs do for 80% of fight is bash. People have been complaining about Conq for months, and aside from his bash he has nothing. When you make one move perform so much more better than everything else in the kit, of course everyone will capitalize on just doing that, it not rocket science.

After Kensei rework I thought FH devs finally figured it out, but nope. They keep making new heroes with a large kit that no one will ever use, and one gimmick that everyone will keep spamming whole match.

This game will stay where it is until FH devs understands the concept of making a kit where whole kit is viable is the way to go. Instead they keep creating more and more one trick ponies.

[Tundra 793]

I have been away from the game and forums a while, after a week of playing with/against BP I can certainly say FH devs haven't learned their lesson in the slightest.

Always good to see familiar faces around here.

I suppose one could say that the developers learned their lesson, in that in the last two years we always got at least 2 annoying new heroes each season, but this year we're only getting 4 in total!

Reading peoples' reaction to BP, and the Wu-Lin, has been of great interest to me. I flat out stopped playing PvP many many moons ago, and while the game is a bit more boring now, I largely feel absolutely none of the pains and frustrations that still plague y'all.
The players will always, it seems, flock to the easiest and cheesiest moves available to them, and judging by the rage I keep seein', the developers haven't learned how to fix that yet.

[Vendelkin]

More comments on how the bash is the obvious worst part of his kit. Do either you tundra, or mia, like my proposed changes? If not why? (Too weak or too strong still in your opinions) and then tell me what you would propose. Also if you havent please watch those videos and give me input on your thoughts. Thanks!

[Mia.Nora]

More comments on how the bash is the obvious worst part of his kit. Do either you tundra, or mia, like my proposed changes? If not why? (Too weak or too strong still in your opinions) and then tell me what you would propose. Also if you havent please watch those videos and give me input on your thoughts. Thanks!

Basic rule of some fix is better than no fix applies, so any of the suggestions you have is better than current situation; but in my gut what I feel is that his bash from neutral and his bash following a light should be separated in terms of speed / recovery and the damage of light following them.

As you also mentioned bash from neutral should have more recovery time to allow for a punish on whiff, also light following neutral bash shouldn't do as much damage. 20 is way too good for how little risk is involved. Maybe speed of bash after light should be slightly slower, since the other option in combo is an undodgable heavy.

As of now, majority of BP fights are as follows; bash>light>bash/undodgable heavy. If they start to lose back dash and bulwark to heal and throw unblockable/feint if you get too close, and flip over if you try to bash or throw a long range unblockable attack. Way too tedious.

[ArchDukeInstinct]

As of now, majority of BP fights are as follows; bash>light>bash/undodgable heavy. If they start to lose back dash and bulwark to heal and throw unblockable/feint if you get too close, and flip over if you try to bash or throw a long range unblockable attack. Way too tedious.

You can't do a bash > light > bash. Light counts as 2nd in the combo.

[Mia.Nora]

You can't do a bash > light > bash. Light counts as 2nd in the combo.

Yea, lazy writing. I thought it was an ok way to combine bash>light and light>bash>light and light>undodgable heavy into one thing like that.