Raider rework? | Forums

[chukblok]

I think a few changes for Raider could be:

1. Raiders Fury (The chained ZA) has hyper armor.
2. Stunning tap is undodgable.
3. Stunning tap can be hard feinted.
4. Light attacks (Basic and chained) are 500ms.

id be happy even with 1,2 on this list. Raiders Fury is basically his bread and butter

[MCBooma16]

I don't really think giving Raider an UB opener would be the best idea ever, I just think raider needs an extra soft feint, a LH or LHH or LHL chain, and faster lights.

Hyper armor would be pretty unnecessary, Raider just isn't a trader. HA with hard-hitting heavies would be kind of insane, especially within team fights along with the chained zone attack. He would need his damage values checked, which would take away from Raider's identity of being a hard-hitter.

[SIIaSII]

1. 500ms neutral lights
2. Light to heavy chain
3. HA on his zone maybe?
4. Remove HA from Stampede Charge

Raider is a very strong ganker because of his Stampede Charge . If ubi ever rework or buff raider i think ubi would & should remove HA on raider from Stampede Charge just like they did with shugoki's hug which was death sentence.

[LedgeAllegiance]

There are threads all over reddit about potential tweaks and updates, or even reworks, @Ubiflowessence.

A major one I see to give Raider is a L-H chain. Perhaps a L-H-L and/or L-H-H chain(s) just to keep it consistent with all Raider's three attack chain options.

Second thing, faster light attacks. 600ms does not work anymore, except out of anticipation to interrupt attacks. 500ms seems to be the best way to go, especially with how nicely Black Prior does and how more consistent WL is.

I don't really think Raider needs hyper armor since it would take away from Raider's identity a bit. It would be great, but Raider isn't a trader. He's a hard- hitting, high light parry-punishing hero with the best dodge GB in the game that suits for counter attacking. To play Raider, you need to get in your opponent's head and adjust when necessary.

The thing is, better players have no problem with Raider's current offense in 1v1's. And, unless you can parry lights consistently and get those nice 40dmg heavies, the only pressure a Raider can apply is with the zone 33/33/33.

Stunning tap is good, but maybe needs to be faster.

Raider can't get his damage in.

Raider for sure needs faster lights and quicker stunning tap. Maybe faster heavies, too, but I honestly like the 40dmg. If Ubi makes them faster they might go down to 35, similar to what happened to Shugoki.

I've seen lots of ideas.

MAYBE more soft feint options. Heavy to heavy or heavy to light soft feint from opposite side that can be accessed from any heavy in the chain. Even soft feint to left side into light or heavy from the zone.

Example: Right heavy, Left heavy but left heavy soft feinted to right side light or heavy. With a LHH or LHL chain available players would then be able to chain into another heavy after that soft feinted light, and soft feint to stunning tap as a mixup possibility. Here's the mixup:

H=Heavy. L=Light, ST=Stunning tap. SF=Soft feint.
Right H SF to Left L- Left H SF to ST- Zone- SF to Left L- Right H- Top L- Right H SF to Left H.

Assuming you have enough stam, that's theoretically a possible mixup. And, if I'm honest, that would be sick.

Summary:

°500ms lights
°Faster Stunning tap(If faster, lower damage to 16 or 15, from 18)
°Ability to soft feint heavies from left or right into another heavy or light.
°Light to heavy chain or chains to allow for less predictability and more mind games.
°Slightly less stamina consumption to allow for more neutral pressure with the zone attack.

With these simple changes, Raider will have more neutral 50/50 options. Raider will be able to perform soft feints to stunning taps or soft feints to the sides. With less stamina consumption, the combinations that will then be available with new chains and soft feint options will be phenomenal and excellent. There will also be more neutral pressure with the zone and a soft feint option to the left from the zone will make for some fun and inte eating gameplay.

Raider doesn't need an "opener" or hyper armor. He just needs quicker and better ways to access and maintain his mixups.

Sorry for the late reply but I agree with just about everything you said only thing I might consider is hyper armor on startup of heavy mixup and zone. Mainly because I get hit with a light a lot of times that interrupt me getting into a mixup or also gb right out of ub. No ha on heavy/light zone just neutral. I honestly wouldn't mind ha on startup of all heavies but I'm sure that would come with damage nerf and I'd like to keep his damage where it's at.

I think he needs an opener but dont have a good idea on that one but I would settle for 500ms lights and better tracking on all of his moves. I run into a problem of ppl being able to run away from all my mixups. Occasionally I get lucky and they try to dodge backwards early on ub and it tracks but to many times ppl dodge my attacks or run especially when I get revenge. They all just roll away and run and raider cant catch up.

I dont want to complain because I dont want anyone to take it the wrong way but the dodging gb is very buggy. I have to spam it when someone tries to gb in mid dodge and usually results in me gb the air but I'd rather keep it than lose it all together.

Great ideas though!

[LedgeAllegiance]

1. 500ms neutral lights
2. Light to heavy chain
3. HA on his zone maybe?
4. Remove HA from Stampede Charge

Raider is a very strong ganker because of his Stampede Charge . If ubi ever rework or buff raider i think ubi would & should remove HA on raider from Stampede Charge just like they did with shugoki's hug which was death sentence.

If I'm not mistaken he doesnt have ha on stampede any more. I've got hit out of it a couple times but maybe it was a bad timing of stampede. I see both sides of it though. If it has ha then take the stam drain away if not keep the ha. To me its not hard to dodge and takes away from his mixups if he was to be lighted out of it. I use it all the time to get ppl go dodge and lock on gb during dodge to wall splat and start my mixups.

Agree with light/heavy chain and in my post below yours I get into ha on startup of heavies and neutral zone.

[LionsFang78]

I have some ideas as to how to refine Raider to make him truly legendary

-500 ms lights, his 600 ms lights are currently parry bait.

-More chains. Light heavy heavy, heavy light heavy, etc. Right now Raider feels way too restricted for an "easy vanguard"

-Make zone attack from neutral (so not the finisher version of it) a bit faster. This will make it a better pressure tool.

-Allow raider to soft feint his heavy attacks and zone into a stunning tap from any direction he is not already attacking from. Example: soft feinting a top heavy into a stunning tap from the left or right. Keep the dazed effect exclusive to the top stunning tap though.

-Make stampede charge interruptable by enemy and ally attacks so it's not a death sentence in gank situations (the damage reduction during the animations is often times not enough).

I don't believe Raider needs hyper armor on any of his attacks, he's a vanguard and isn't really meant to trade

That's all Raider would need to become viable, and it maintains his play style. With faster light attacks, better chains and making stunning tap less predictable (without making it insanely fast) Raider should be able to hold his own in a 1v1 and open up turtles despite not having a bash attack. All of this at the cost of being a bit less useful in ganking, but I think many Raider mains would accept that trade. Thanks for the read

[EvoX.]

I've picked up the hero recently after having thought I'd never play him, and he seems surprisingly satisfying. 600ms lights and overall zero offense is a bummer, but 40 damage light parries and getting that 45 dammage wallsplat? That's something I'm into, not to mention dodge-GB.

I agree with people here that he should have the standard 500ms lights, HA on both his zone versions with possibly a soft feint instead of a hard fent to GB, and a better Stunning Tap. Do that, and he's golden, the core of his kit is definitely good.

[Knight_Raime]

Last time we heard about Raider from the devs was that he's currently got a mode he excels in (breach) so they don't sense the urgency to address him. But they wanted to make it clear that they do want to get to him at some point. On a personal note If centurion isn't reworked into it then Raider should be reworked to be a grappler character as he is the only other one that's fitting for that kind of identity. But whatever they end up giving him I hope they also remove/nerf his dodge into GB.

[MCBooma16]

Sorry for the late reply but I agree with just about everything you said only thing I might consider is hyper armor on startup of heavy mixup and zone. Mainly because I get hit with a light a lot of times that interrupt me getting into a mixup or also gb right out of ub. No ha on heavy/light zone just neutral. I honestly wouldn't mind ha on startup of all heavies but I'm sure that would come with damage nerf and I'd like to keep his damage where it's at.

I think he needs an opener but dont have a good idea on that one but I would settle for 500ms lights and better tracking on all of his moves. I run into a problem of ppl being able to run away from all my mixups. Occasionally I get lucky and they try to dodge backwards early on ub and it tracks but to many times ppl dodge my attacks or run especially when I get revenge. They all just roll away and run and raider cant catch up.

I dont want to complain because I dont want anyone to take it the wrong way but the dodging gb is very buggy. I have to spam it when someone tries to gb in mid dodge and usually results in me gb the air but I'd rather keep it than lose it all together.

Great ideas though!

I suppose HA on startup heavy would be good, it works in gank and 1v1 situations really nicely, as seen with Shugoki. But, I think such a change would call for damage nerfs, at least on that first heavy. With Raider currently, a player can get 90 damage on a player or players in a gank. Yes, spacing and awareness is needed to get that damage off, and it's annoying when some cheeky Orochi lights you out of the first heavy or zone. If the first heavy gets HA, then it's possible Ubi would nerf the first heavy to 35 from 40 and the zone finisher to 40-45 from 50. Those are small value changes but I'd rather they find another way to tweak Raider.

In order to deal with getting interrupted, you need to expect it. Cancel heavies and zones, and wait for light attacks. Boom, 40-45 damage, it'll discourage them from trying too many interruptions and you may be able to initiate your zone attack options. Theoretically speaking, although I've done this countless times and sometimes it completely shuts the opponent down. Smarter opponents then try to do regular parries instead of light interruptions to change timings.

I honestly think Ubi can figure something out for Raider without adding some form of bash opener that guarantees damage. The Shugoki rework has no opening bashes whatsoever, and he has monstrous presence. That's due to the variable-timed heavies and HA, though. If Ubi can make Raider better without changing the identity like they did with Shugoki, I'd be absolutely satisfied. Of course, everything here is speculation, so I don't want to count on any one person's ideas making the rework.

Raider's main problems in 1v1 mainly comes with his light attacks and limited chains. WL did okay with his simple two chains because he had a quick bash and OOS pressure tool, which made players have to guess between light, heavy, GB, or headbutt. If Raider's neutral and chain lights were faster, it would make a significant difference. When characters are just slow, it stalls the fight. You can see now that Shugoki and WL now have very fun and aggressive styles since 500ms lights allow them to initiate attacks and keep a good and intimidating flow going. You need to pay attention to them, now.

With Raider, if it isn't a zone mixup, there's nothing to be worried about. Raider isn't nearly as bad as Lawbringer since Raider can perform his UB zone from neutral or chain it after a light or heavy. That's about the only mind game Raider has. Lights do not work, except maybe getting lucky and interrupting attacks, but they're just not good.

I don't normally have problems with people backing or dodging away. If I can see they're out of stam and dodging back, I just run straight at them, lock on, zone, feint, and forward dodge GB. I can then get my free light to zone combo off for 65 damage if they dodged.

I've never seen anyone roll away from my zone mixups, Raider isn't that intimidating of a 50/50 it seems.

Dodge GB is cool on Raider, because you can either GB mid-dodge really really early, or after his full dodge recovery, which is really short.

It's a spacing thing you probably miscalculated. If you spammed GB after dodge and GBd the air, the opponent was too far away and you didn't even need to GB.
I find the dodge GB useful for countering bashes and light attacks. If you press GB too early for longer attacks you might bounce off and eat a heavy. There are variable timings on the dodge GB that take a quick eye in executing the proper GB. That all comes down to knowing your opponents recovery timings.

[jortakk]

One thing I'd love, can we actually have the "zone" property on his in chain Raider Fury so it can be used more often, isn't as punishing, and actually behaves like its meant to?