Stop making unreactable attacks | Forums

[Vtach93]

Been playing since beta.... These 400ms light attacks and shield bashes make the game no fun and takes away from any mind games you can use when all you have to do is throw an unreactable attack... takes the fun out of the game and makes me not want to play

[Knight_Raime]

You need unreactable attacks in order to have mind games. If everything is reactable then there is no figuring out what your opponent will do because you can just wait and react to it.

[PINKmattconnor]

they create this attacks becasue they don't want nerf the parry punish for good, since season 2 there was a problem of turtle parry meta, so they just remove GB garantee on parry but still, means that you can turtle and punish offensive gameplay, that's why, they create some unreactbale attacks and the wu lin heroes as free spam heroes....these are all the conseguences of their choices in the past seasons

[Corentin10111]

The idea of spamming unreactable attacks was such a good idea... Seriously, fixing a broken meta with another broken meta. WTF?! They turned it into a guessing game with no skill involved.
First of all, they should have done a different balancing between console and pc. Second, anything they do without balancing the game differently is a bad idea..

[rottmeister]

I can see how unreactable attacks are necessary but they shouldn't be as spammable as they are now. It takes skill/luck to be able to counter them: you either read them or straight up guess (or have an inhumane reaction time or have an insanely expensive set up), meanwhile it takes 0 skill to spam r1 + a direction. That's what pisses me off. They're extremely safe unless you're dumb enough to repeat a pattern multiple times. There's barely any mindgames involved, unless you count pissing off your opponent. I'm not able to play as much FH as I used to and I've been getting fairly annoyed at the lightspamming Orochi's in 4vs4 lately. It's not an insta loss mind you, but it is annoying to deal with at the very least. Before I was able to deal with it better because I played the game on a daily basis, now I just don't have the time.

[rottmeister]

unreactable attacks are necessary. Otherwise, we will be back to this "turtle meta" everyone and his "since alpha" persona had been weeping about since... forever. it takes skill to properly predict an possible unreactable and counter it in such a small window.
And please, quit the skill talk, which i don't say sarcastically but sincerely. The turtles, despite so much flame coming their way, are skilled. Are you sure you can afford the frustration facing these skilled turtles?
As for spamming, the term itself indicates a repetition. I don;t know about everyone but we humans do learn. Guess game is not a guess game at all when an action is repeated again and again by sheer habit. it should be countered easily.
However, the current BP's light-bash-light in OOS is totally not ok for such a severe punish with so cheap a trade off, almost none at all. I hope it is being addressed.
signed,
Season 1 Veteran
Not--since-alpha/beta

1. I'm fairly certain BP's OOS pressure is being looked at. Even heard some say they were going to remove the confirmed bash after superior light.

2. Yes guessing game is not a thing if an action is repeated again and again, but the thing is: there are 3 sides to attack/defend, not just 1. If an Orochi spams lights in 1 direction of course you'll parry every single light after getting hit twice or if he has a pattern, you'll anticipate the next light in the direction he did before. Spam might not be the correct term I used if I look at the definition you gave. But you're getting bombarded with unreactable attacks from different sides and the word 'spam' already is massively used in this community when talking about Orochi's lights. Definitions of words tend to change, because something isn't considered spam now, it might be in the future.

3 I agree that unreactable moves are needed but the way the devs incorporated them in the game is bad imo (except for pommel strike and a few others). If hitting r1 + changing direction wasn't effective, Orochi's and Nuxia's would definitely be less played for 1 and 2 they wouldn't constantly do it in every given situation. They might not do this in Grandmaster level play (even though I saw a vid a while ago of the #1 Nuxia player pretty much only use her lights in duel) but I definitely have seen it in ranked (I ranked Diamond V) and it's so common in dominion/breach.

I'm all for staying away from the turtle meta, but I'm not for increasing the speed on everything. I think Kensei, Shaman and maybe Shaolin are the 'perfect' heroes. None of them are dependant on just 1 move/thing. Neither Kensei or Shaman have 400 ms light attacks yet they're performing well. I don't mind if certain moves are 400ms like an occasional light or softfeint, but come on not every single light in a chain.

This is why I like playing Shaman so much, I can use her entire moveset when I play, not just the r1 button.

[Tundra 793]

You need unreactable attacks in order to have mind games. If everything is reactable then there is no figuring out what your opponent will do because you can just wait and react to it.

This, doesn't sound right.

Isn't a mind game something to do with anticipation and deception? I.e. feints. A mind game to me, is a deeper level of gameplay, something that takes more skill to get good at, as you need to learn a specific character rather well, so you can deploy the tools at your disposal to counter other heroes.

A 400ms light attack, is not that. I'm not being tricked, or fooled, at all times I'm fully aware of what's happening. I simply just cannot react to 400ms attacks. My body's reflexes have a hard limit i cannot surpass without the use of drugs, or dangerous levels of Red Bull.

Some of you are saying that unreactable attacks are nessecary, I'm not sure, maybe they are, but they absolutely have gone too far with them overall.
There's been so many interesting and potentially game saving suggestions made over the years, and it kills me still that the devs refuse to give us test servers so we can end these endless academic discussions, and actually try to improve the game little by little.

[rottmeister]

This, doesn't sound right.

Isn't a mind game something to do with anticipation and deception? I.e. feints. A mind game to me, is a deeper level of gameplay, something that takes more skill to get good at, as you need to learn a specific character rather well, so you can deploy the tools at your disposal to counter other heroes.

A 400ms light attack, is not that. I'm not being tricked, or fooled, at all times I'm fully aware of what's happening. I simply just cannot react to 400ms attacks. My body's reflexes have a hard limit i cannot surpass without the use of drugs, or dangerous levels of Red Bull.

Some of you are saying that unreactable attacks are nessecary, I'm not sure, maybe they are, but they absolutely have gone too far with them overall.
There's been so many interesting and potentially game saving suggestions made over the years, and it kills me still that the devs refuse to give us test servers so we can end these endless academic discussions, and actually try to improve the game little by little.

I agree. Certainly with your second paragraph. I shouldn't have to take substances or train my reflexes to react to a character's chain (for example Nuxia's light chain). I'm still quite young (yet old enough to vote) and have been playing video games since I was little. Eventually my reflexes got better and better, but I still struggle with 400 ms lights (and Aramusha's robotic animations haha, but that's just a personal vendetta I have against him). This might be due to my set up being whack (PS4, TV, no gaming mode, controller plugged in most of the time) or my reaction time just not being good enough. It feels weird to me that my reflexes fail me when I face an Orochi/Nux. Certainly because I'm the type of person that matrix dodges everything irl, used to love dodgeball.

Sidenote: I'm never ever ******* drinking energy drinks after 11pm anymore, certainly not 4. Tried to study through the night and paid the price. Slept for 2 hours and had to puke right after I woke up. Lesson learned I guess, lol.

[Siegfried-Z]

I have To agree with Rott and Tundra on that.
I've been saying this for a while already but unreactable attacks are not good for the game.
Seriously what is the point of smashing light button with Roch, Nuxia, etc ? This is just a no Skill gameplay.

It doesn't involve any mind game or any mixup.

I am ok with things like Zerk 400ms light feint for example because, of course zerk if one of the strongest char but at least he is a mix up char, he is not all about spamming a triple lights chain.

Same with Shaman, lots of people complain about her. Yes she is strong but she has to mix up.

Problem is the team balance the game for PC.
I have both PC and console.
One of the PC huge problem is people playing with different fps.
Some play with 50-60fps, some just as the YouTuber FluxDeluxe plays with 160fps. .. 160fps guys. . He said it To me himself.
On my PC i have play with diff fps level and let me tells you each step makes a big gap! I have try at 60, 75, 90, 120 and 145 fps.
From 120fps i was able to parry very often 400ms lights. At 75fps never . 90fps sometimes but not that often.
145 ? Man any lights were parry candy for me.. even Shaolin ones, Aramusha 400ms softfeint doesn't matter. I was able to parry EVERYTHING in the game.

So, of course if they do their balance arround people playing with 90fps or more.. how could we handle it on console.

[rottmeister]

I have To agree with Rott and Tundra on that.
I've been saying this for a while already but unreactable attacks are not good for the game.
Seriously what is the point of smashing light button with Roch, Nuxia, etc ? This is just a no Skill gameplay.

It doesn't involve any mind game or any mixup.

I am ok with things like Zerk 400ms light feint for example because, of course zerk if one of the strongest char but at least he is a mix up char, he is not all about spamming a triple lights chain.

Same with Shaman, lots of people complain about her. Yes she is strong but she has to mix up.

Well in an earlier post I said that I could see how unreactable attacks are needed, but not in the sense of Orochi's/Nuxia's lights.
I'm a bit on the fence on whether I think unreactable attacks are needed or not.
I can definitely see both sides of the coin.
So I'm not 100% sure who to agree with, but Tundra has said a lot of things I can relate to.