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Member
Cross Network Play: Getting Better?
I met some excellent Wii U dancers when I was learning Just Dance 2015 back in 2016. I saw these dancers occasionally on the World Dance Floor for Just Dance 2017 and Just Dance 2018. But just for a few weeks at a time, and then they disappeared, and I didn't see their names on the World Cup leaderboards.
These were amazing Wii U dancers, hitting 13,000's and mid to high 12,000's across almost all of the dancers, usually having the top Wii U scores. But I'm guessing they got discouraged. First of all, Wii U didn't make it clear that there was cross-network play, so not all Wii U dancers were aware that they were competing against Xbox and PS4 (and Switch) dancers. It seems to be easier to hit more 13,000's on Xbox, and more dancers seem to be doing this on Xbox Kinect. There are often a few Kinect dancers on the WDF hitting 13,000's on just about everything.
Imagine a Wii U dancer who usually hit top scores in Just Dance 2015, and then suddenly in 2017 and 2018 they are hitting more 12,000's and 13,000's (it seems like the game got a little easier), but for some songs they struggle to finish in the top 10 or hit a low 12,000, but the leaderboard is plastered with 13,000's. If they didn't know that those 13,000's were coming from another platform, it could be quite discouraging. Imagine if they used to finish 1st on the 2015 Wii U dance floor regularly, and rarely win a tournament now. I'm guessing that a few exceptional players from multiple platforms didn't compete in the World Cup, not realizing that they were doing better than it seemed, and not knowing that the World Cup scores would be curved to try to make the scoring fair across the platforms.
There are players using remotes or phones who hit amazing scores on the WDF across all of the platforms. Not everyone is discouraged, and a few exceptional remote players compete well even against the top Kinect players. There are also a few songs that seem to favor other platforms over Xbox Kinect. But overall, it seems like the WDF experience favors Xbox.
In 2018, it seemed like the gap between Xbox and the other platforms was bridged a little bit overall compared to 2017, but it still doesn't seem quite equitable. Is anything being done to try to make the WDF experience more equitable across all of the platforms?
Right now, it seems like some songs favor Xbox, some songs favor PS4 camera, and other songs favor a remote or phone. It would be ideal if, for a given song, the level of difficulty and the range of scoring were about the same regardless of which platform was used. It seems like the Just Dance team should be able to make this happen to a much greater extent.
In 2017, Lean On was a difficult dance with a remote or phone. It makes sense if you examine the intricate hand motions. In contrast, Dragostea Din Tei was relatively easy with a remote or phone. The right hand made mostly slow and smooth motions which were easy to match. On Xbox Kinect, Lean On was relatively easy, as the scoring rewarded you if you could get you whole body to track the coach well, but Dragostea Din Tei was relativly difficult because it was physically challening to get the arms and legs coordinated and to both track very well.
It seems to me that the Just Dance team should be able to anticipate when a dance will be easier or harder with a remote/phone, and when it will be easier or harder with Kinect or the PS4 camera. Ideally, the scoring of the dances should factor in the differences between the platforms. If it will be harder to track the dance with the right hand than the full body, the tolerances and penalties should be adjusted: Either make the scoring a little easier on the phone/camera, or make it a little harder and more demanding on Kinect or the camera, or both.
You have plenty of data for scoring for Just Dance 2017 and 2018 to help guide this. When I look at the leaderboards and my friends' scores, I see some obvious discrepancies between the platforms. For example, on the main version of Side to Side, over 300 Xbox Kinect players have hit 13,300 and over 1000 have hit 13,000, whereas far fewer have hit 13,000 on Wii U or Switch. There are a few dances, like the alternate version of Another One Bits the Dust, which seem to be easier on other platforms than Xbox Kinect. And then there are dances like Risky Business, Swish Swish, and Slumber Party where I felt fairly evenly matched against top players from other platforms.
I would look at the 10th, 100th, and 1000th best players on each platform. If the scores are comparable across the platforms, the scoring was a success. If the 300th best player on Xbox Kinect has the same score as the 10th best player on Switch on a given song, the scoring didn't come out very equitable.
Players should feel like they have roughly equal chances of success on the WDF on any platform. And if the scoring were more equitable across the platforms, it wouldn't be necessary to curve the World Cup scores (or the curve would be much softer than it was last year).
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Junior Member
I've had that idea for some time now, thanks for being vocal about it :0
I wonder too why crossplay isn't a feature that isn't featured explicitly at the cover box for these games and it's only announced in the times of the JDWC (...or I guess it's because when making the box art of your game in certain console, you're obviously not going to get a greenlight specifying crossplay with your console's competition?? or just too paranoid bruh)
And yeah, the gap between platforms got more balanced from 2017 to 2018 due to the score system improvement (the SUPER move). But I think that this gap is hardly ever going to dissappear because in remote controllers a mistake can cost you more points because less moves = less point density per moves and that means a near full perfect combo in remote may always be less than one in a camera. But you know what? I agree, even if it's natural due to that fact, I'd love to see measures they could take in order to complement that fact from other sides like making penalties and tolerances, without taking experience away from the songs.
I remembered today the case in 2017 with Cake By The Ocean, which was an apparently balanced song between cameras and remotes, the detection in cameras was lower and remote controllers took the lead... except that it meant making the experience super frustrating for the Xbox/PS Cam and the only player relevant for his camera score was Aazzlano, even if he had a really big gap against the other camera players, man was he having a terrible time with that song...
Yeah, it should be possible to balance them outside of the JDWC ponderation system (which is another discussion outside of this), so in the everyday experience we can have a more diverse podium at WDF :0
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Member
Cake by the Ocean (the main version) was difficult with Kinect, especially the first 8 or so moves. I watched dozens of video challenges where I felt impressed by the dancer in the video, yet the score was mostly OK's on the first 8 moves. When the World Cup came around, I happened to do a video challenge against one of the top Kinect dancers, who hit a high 12,000 on it. After studying that video, it looked like one of the tricks was to synchronize your lower (secondary) hand with the opposite foot. It made sense, too. The best dancers should have all their body parts in sync, not just the main ones (though I'm not positive what the game was looking for, as I never hit all perfects on those moves). It's intuitive to focus primarily on your main (upper hand). When I started focusing on timing the motion of my secondary hand (instead of my main arm) with the stepping of my foot onto the floor, I started hitting good's instead of okay's on these opening moves, and was finally able to hit 12,700 to 12,800 on this dance.
But I was so worn out physically after doing Cake by the Ocean (since I felt like I really had to exaggerate some of the motions to optimize my score) that I didn't have enough energy left in the tank to pull off Scream and Shout Extreme as well as I could when I was fresh, and it always cost me a couple hundred points at the end (though I was in no danger of qualifying regardless). Everybody had to deal with this though, and there were obviously fit enough players still dancing exceptionally well to this extreme dance even after all the other dances before it.
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Community Manager
I really appreciate the insight from multi-game, multi-platform dancers like yourselves. Thank you guys very much for sharing your thoughts and observations. I'll be sure to pass this along to the team.