Will the wuLin get nerf with the new characters? | Forums

[Corentin10111]

I just hope Vortiger will be same as Wu Lin. Give him 400ms lights, shield bush feint from heavy, 360 unblockable after parry (JJ have it, and he is heavy, so...). All this OP moves and some OP feats. Give it all to Vortiger and I'll be fine.=)

Oh he will! Every new character will be OP, cause it is easier to make it OP than balanced...

[Sekiro...]

dude, ask this is useless, the answer will always be the same.

who plays with the op hero will always say they are fine

[UbiInsulin]

The Wu Lin will always be obnoxious to deal with because their kits deny other kits access to reactive counters. Bashes, 400 ms lights, and undodgables are always at their fingertips. To fight them you basically just have to be more patient. That is, don't attack them, but also, don't react.

Do not confuse this with them being generically overpowered; much of the Wu Lin damage output is reasonable. It's about them forcing encounters down to a narrower spectrum of viable tactics. And before you say "the competitive community don't see this as a problem", of course they don't, the competitive community only use three moves in the game anyway. They won't and don't do anything that isn't safe. The Wu Lin effectively force everyone to play like competitive players, which, aside from being incredibly boring, is unfair to the people who just want to play for fun.

For Honor has unfortunately become something I give my attention out of morbid curiosity. There's painfully little movement on topics that matter. It's just the same old "more content" routine. Another hero at the end of the month. No update on zone input, no talk on the absolute rubbish stamina system or revenge system, and how they both feed directly into crippling offense, no discussion on how to make more of each kit viable, no talk on how to bring each hero's move-set and mix-up variety in-line with each other, or what attributes exist or can be implemented to substitute raw parity.


Really feels like this game has become a meme-infested competitive test-tube. The game we all wanted is a distant memory.

I guess I would ask you what the broad issues you have with the stamina system are, and what are examples of where you see the problems in practice?

Sometimes people mean different things when they bring up problems with the revenge system, but we have said that we want it to NOT be a boon players get for losing a 1v1 battle. It's being looked at.

It sounds like some of the issues you've brought up (fast lights, bashes/ways to initiate safely) indicate you'd like the game to be more defensive/reactive, which is something that we all know used to be a major problem/topic of conversation. Let me know if I'm over-simplifying your viewpoint, though. I think there's a fine line to walk between stylistic diversity and making heroes viable. Isn't opening up turtles a good thing for a hero to be capable of doing?

Not trying to argue back and forth with you, btw, just interested in you expanding on your viewpoint.

I have to say that the community repeat for a long time that it is stupid to refer to the competitive community (top 1%) to balance the game. The truth is that most of the community think that Kensei is the most balanced character and that the rest of the roster sould try to get to his level of versality. Not Turning everyone into an impredictable pain like Shaolin. (i talk especially about console where the majority of the playerbase is)

And i want to add that EVERY stropol that i saw about the direction the game took showed that the community on this forum think that it is a bad direction.

I stay on top of what that community thinks, but I report a healthy mix of opinions to the dev team. I just thought OP's takes ended up very close to the competitive consensus, and that this was worth pointing out.

[Siegfried-Z]

It sounds like some of the issues you've brought up (fast lights, bashes/ways to initiate safely) indicate you'd like the game to be more defensive/reactive, which is something that we all know used to be a major problem/topic of conversation. Let me know if I'm over-simplifying your viewpoint, though. I think there's a fine line to walk between stylistic diversity and making heroes viable. Isn't opening up turtles a good thing for a hero to be capable of doing?

If i may, ability to open a turtle is a very good thing. I Believe this is very important for the game.

BUT, it has to be done smartly. My point is, i understand what Jazz said. Wulins kit are overall slighlty Superior to others char but this small difference have a big impact on the game experience.

For example, Valk or Kensei as many others old char can open a turtle with Tools such as Pommel strike (average tool but still) or Shield crush for valk. These mooves makes the job without being toxic.
Because they can be react to but they allow a mix up gameplay where you have to catch your opponent.


But Wulins got toxic tools to do it :


-I don't think Nuxia is too strong but i every players have complains about 400ms lights and she's got 2 400ms lights in her triple lights chain...
-Tiandi got a 500ms bash from neutral which didn't even require to dodge first AND 400ms 2nd light despite of being a vanguard ...
-Shaolin has a 400ms light from neutral. Only from the top yes but as it is from neutral it allow him to deny many others offense
-JJ... ahh JJ.. A heavy with DMG far above all the others char + 400ms softfeint (easy to parry if spam but still) and Toxic AOE property (360 degree UB Zone parry for example)

So, in my opinion, their kit aren't a good thing for the health of the game design wise. Specially for console.

It hasn't been made in a smart way for the game. Look some Vanguard, hybrids and even assassins still have 600ms lights and Wulins all have 400ms, All.

Tbh in my own experience the game feel less fun since Wulins are there. If we would have an option to turn on such as "play without wulins" i would do it.

it doesn't mean they are op, i think just JJ is in 4v4 and maybe Shaolin Slightly in 1v1.

Just my opinion.

[HE-tsunami]

His chain lights are the biggest problem. He can throw fast lights that hit everyone in an ark around him. He's a one man team.

[UbiInsulin]

If i may, ability to open a turtle is a very good thing. I Believe this is very important for the game.

BUT, it has to be done smartly. My point is, i understand what Jazz said. Wulins kit are overall slighlty Superior to others char but this small difference have a big impact on the game experience.

For example, Valk or Kensei as many others old char can open a turtle with Tools such as Pommel strike (average tool but still) or Shield crush for valk. These mooves makes the job without being toxic.
Because they can be react to but they allow a mix up gameplay where you have to catch your opponent.


But Wulins got toxic tools to do it :


-I don't think Nuxia is too strong but i every players have complains about 400ms lights and she's got 2 400ms lights in her triple lights chain...
-Tiandi got a 500ms bash from neutral which didn't even require to dodge first AND 400ms 2nd light despite of being a vanguard ...
-Shaolin has a 400ms light from neutral. Only from the top yes but as it is from neutral it allow him to deny many others offense
-JJ... ahh JJ.. A heavy with DMG far above all the others char + 400ms softfeint (easy to parry if spam but still) and Toxic AOE property (360 degree UB Zone parry for example)

So, in my opinion, their kit aren't a good thing for the health of the game design wise. Specially for console.

It hasn't been made in a smart way for the game. Look some Vanguard, hybrids and even assassins still have 600ms lights and Wulins all have 400ms, All.

Tbh in my own experience the game feel less fun since Wulins are there. If we would have an option to turn on such as "play without wulins" i would do it.

it doesn't mean they are op, i think just JJ is in 4v4 and maybe Shaolin Slightly in 1v1.

Just my opinion.

Thank you for this post. It's much appreciated.

[Jazz117Volkov]

I guess I would ask you what the broad issues you have with the stamina system are, and what are examples of where you see the problems in practice?

Sometimes people mean different things when they bring up problems with the revenge system, but we have said that we want it to NOT be a boon players get for losing a 1v1 battle. It's being looked at.

Indeed, it can be hard to pin down exactly what someone means.

My complaint with the stamina is and has always been that it simultaneously punishes the aggressor and rewards the defender by virtue of existing. I think health is what the attacker should risk and stamina is what the defender should risk, at least in simple terms. As it is right now, the attacker is risking both, the defender is risking neither. For example, if you block an attack, you take chip damage...that's about it. If your attack is blocked, you lose a chunk of stamina. If you parry, you lose no health but spend stamina on attacking (which doesn't really count because the offense in this case is guaranteed). If your attack is parried, you lose basically all of your stamina and a chunk of health. See how both health and stamina work to disadvantage the attacker? Ideally, and bare with me on this one, getting heavy parried shouldn't be a big deal, especially for a heavy or vanguard class. Like, a Raider or Warden, and definitely Lawbringer, should feel pretty good about letting their heavies fly, even if they get parried.

I think block and parry stamina consumption should be flipped. If you're parried, your stamina doesn't really take a hit at all, you just lose a bit of health (provided it wasn't a light parry). But if you block an attack, say, a heavy attack, you should lose about a third of your stamina and take chip damage. So getting hammered on by multiple opponents would drain your stamina super quick...which is where Revenge should have its place. If defense was tied to stamina I think the OOS state should change; keep your attack speed and combos, but make chip damage 50% the attacks original damage, and probably keep the unbalance throw property. Then Revenge, in addition to giving you a shield, would really only need to give you infinite stamina for its duration to make a super tank while getting ganked. I say super tank, because in the context of these changes, turtling would be very undesirable.

Otherwise, as an overall, I think the entire cast need a bit more stamina. And to review how all these systems currently work against the aggressor, it's not unheard of for me to encounter a situation where I have to spend nearly all my stamina just to open a turtle (feinting, dodging, bashing, etc. whatever tools my hero has) and finally, when he's almost done, I'm out of stamina...and he gets revenge. It's incredibly frustrating.

If stamina isn't crippling offense, people are throwing more heavies, this means feints work better. If feints work better, offense is more effective.

Obviously these changes will have lesser effects the higher you climb on the tier list, because tournament players are playing a different game anyway. But all the same, I think it's really worth considering. And even if none of these suggestions are truly good ideas in the long run, I do believe the stamina and revenge need to be high priority and changed to not only favour the defender.

It sounds like some of the issues you've brought up (fast lights, bashes/ways to initiate safely) indicate you'd like the game to be more defensive/reactive, which is something that we all know used to be a major problem/topic of conversation.

Let me know if I'm over-simplifying your viewpoint, though. I think there's a fine line to walk between stylistic diversity and making heroes viable. Isn't opening up turtles a good thing for a hero to be capable of doing?

I'm not convinced the best approach was taken in fixing the turtle problems. I think that issue was a fault of the auxiliary systems like stamina and revenge coupled with the strength of parries. Making the game more abusive only treats the symptoms, not the causes.

Not trying to argue back and forth with you, btw, just interested in you expanding on your viewpoint.

Nah, don't be worried about something silly like that. I appreciate the dialogue.

[CRIMS0NM0NKEY]

"I'm not convinced the best approach was taken in fixing the turtle problems. I think that issue was a fault of the auxiliary systems like stamina and revenge coupled with the strength of parries. Making the game more abusive only treats the symptoms, not the causes."

...I agree with this. When/if all the roster has/had a bash...well I wonder what the game would be like without 400ms lights, stamina bars, revenge, and no more parries exhaustion.