Member
A little about me, i'm a rep 43 nobu main currently at diamond 2 rank that got there only by playing nobu. I've been forfeiting every china character i see since launch, nobu is simply too slow to attack any of them(in my opinion). I use hidden stance more than trying to actually parry attacks. I consider myself a slightly above average player when it comes to playing For Honor. (my for honor profile tracker: https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/Elhantas/heroes )
So, to try and cure my afflicting viewpoint that is 'china characters are borderline broken'. I chose to fight bot lvl 3 Jiang Jun in a Best of 99 custom game. Everything was set to standard, except round count.
Results were: 50 wins / 2 draws / 45 losses.
The starting rounds i was behind by around ~14wins from Jiang Jun
Slowly i picked up the bots patterns and what i can do to attack.
In the entirety of the rounds i managed to parry 2 lights. Like i mentioned earlier i'm not the best at parrying.
I would have lost without contest if the bot would've used his dodge-attacks to counter my kicks. He simply dodged and did nothing back.
That was somewhat compensated with Bot lvl 3 ridiculous parrying.
By the end of the rounds i had a win streak of 15(if not more) only by using the bots flaws.
I did not stare at the bot and waited for a counter attack. I attacked, threw random lights(that were parried...), kicks or heavies. I played this entirely like i would play vs a normal person.
The game took 84 minutes and 42 seconds.
Imgur link of the outcome if you want proof: https://imgur.com/a/cLfVVS1
And my verdict after all this: Its way beyond strong. People who struggle to win as a Jiang Jun, simply expect to to faceroll people. If given time and effort i firmly believe his enemies have no chance at winning a competitive match. Let alone the fact that majority of humans playing the game are honorless and will abuse every glitch, ledge or anything in their power to dominate a fight.
The matches with bots were at no latency. Meaning that normal 400 ms attacks were at least being able to be blocked. Now if we think that normally both people have around 20~ latency that add's to around 40-50 in total. that's a total of -50ms making the attacks faster then it normally is. I myself achieve around 257-300 ms reaction leaving me with 50 - 100 millisecond time window to perform an action. That's ridiculous
( human benchmark reaction test: https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime )
TL/DR Spent too much times confirming the obvious, chinas be broken.
Member
Im 114 acc rep, currently 55 nobu rep. JJ is giving me hard time not matter of my enemy rank. Even using hidden stance to nulify most of his kit i can barely manage to succesfully hit him due to his infinite sifu stance and dodge (dodge feints). Another thing thats my nemesis is HP pool and damage of both of us. He needs 3 hits in total to kill me, meanwhile i have to poke him to death hundread times. After lost round they usually start to turtle then im pretty screwed cause of poor stamina / stamina regen not allowing me to do more than 2-3 hits, another one thats parried puts me OOS for decades. Still winning most of duels against JJ but its basicly only because im very patient person and i do 110% of me every match, while my enemy just smash his head over keyboard and it works... Tiandi is even worse matchup
Senior Member
Member
OMFG this kind of thinking is killing me.I bet u won't confirm that JJ is actually too strong compared to OG cast without rework, even if he achieve with archmaster as him. U would tell him that he is just good player then huh? But ok, i am no fairy - i cannot say what u would say, and it is just my predict. Fact is that not only JJ is too strong compared to the OG cast. This guy - Elhantas made pretty good job and confirmed what we all know - JJ is too strong. I don't have a good news for him tho. Useless effort man. Nobody who is decision-making won't care about your effort or worse - they will. I have a feeling that when they trying to improve something they are missing the point (conq rework HAHAHA what a disaster - just a top example) so much, that exceptions makes a rule (Kensei rework).Originally Posted by Vakris_One Go to original post
Member
JJ is broken so is shaolin. At least the other factions are going to get new broken heroes as well so maybe we won't be hearing Bruce lee all the time.
As far as I can tell nobody really likes the chinese heroes, they're just so OP that people use them. It's not even their movement set, they have mysterious ledging immunity, ignoring blocks and perks that break most of the mechanics.
Nuxia is a failed experiment and FH really shouldn't have added a new mechanic to a game that can't balance its basic ones.
Member
I had the same feeling when Shaman was introduced. I would fight her level 3 bot and get GBs, EATEN, ANYTHING. It got better after a while.
I have a question to you: Did you check out Youtube to learn the counters to JJ? If you did not, your test is not relevant enough, sorry!
- If a JJ does a top heavy attack, you can side dodge, and he cannot hit you with the kick or the hit.
- If a JJ does a side heavy, he can either feint, or softfeint 180 degree hit, or do the actual heavy. If you back dodge, he cannot hit you.
-- you SHOULD be able to parry either of the 2. Either you wait for the heavy to come through. Easy parry. Or you KNOW that it will be on the 180 degree other side, and you can switch and parry with 100 ms delay.
Bot parrying is fantastic, so that is probably better than a human indeed.
As for his light attacks, they are 500 ms, and as you point out, there is NO delay in training. So they are WAY easlier to block at least, than in a real game.
They do a heck of a lot of damage compared to many other classes though. I suspect/hope there will be a damage nerf to them.
I still struggle with JJ heavies at times, somehow my brain does not register those 800 ms it takes for the hit to start and finish. It feels like a PK zone at times. ..
Personally I agree with you to some extent, I think the JJ does too much damage. But I dont think he is as bad as you say in a duel environment.
in 4v4 melee he is sooo much stronger than 1v1.
Senior Member
As you said many things JJ can do are counterable with some proper dodge. So it's true he is kind of ok in duel.Originally Posted by Card1acArrest Go to original post
But as you mention, most jj hate come from his obvious advantage over any others char in 4v4.
His dmg are so above the others than it looks the team were drunk while setting this^^
His aoe property plus range are insane too.
How many time i've been hit by his UB zone after a parry while i was Behind him ! Wtf ..
Add his speed and hp pool and you've got a 4v4 nightmare .
I agree his kit himself is ok. But yes he needs a serious dmg nerf.
Senior Member
Best stop using the Internet then if being met with different opinions harms you.Originally Posted by The.All.Father Go to original post
I don't see why my post caused you to have a keyboard fit. If the OP is going to go full scientific on this I merely gave them a suggestion that would yield a much better basis for formulating a more accurate analysis of a character's viability. This being a PvP game and all and not a PvE game.
1) Who's this "we"?Originally Posted by The.All.Father Go to original post
2) OP confirmed that he could eventually pick up on a pre-programmed bot's patterns in order to eventually score more wins than loses out of 99 matches with it. Ok. That's cool for him I guess. That proves that he can eventually learn a bot's patterns and since those patterns never change he can guarrantee to keep wining against it.
But what exactly is the scientific worth of this rather flawed analysis when judging how strong a hero is? "I can't completely dominate a JJ bot therefore the character of JJ is OP!" So if I go and use Shugoki in 99 matches against a predictable and brain dead level 3 JJ or Conq bot and I end up with more wins than loses, will that mean Shugoki is OP or that JJ or Conq are trash tier? The answer is of course no, because they are bots with predictable patterns.
TLDR: Winning or losing to bots in this game has no bearing on how strong or weak a character is because bots will never use the character's kit like a player will. A proper understanding of a character comes from playing as them and against them vs other players.
Member
Better u stop using internet if u don't understand that by "killing" i mean no harm but merely emotional reaction (no. not strong one...). By "we" i didn't mean u for sure as I assume u don't think that way... I meant a big piece of community, including myself and OP and NO, i won't make a list for u (why do i even bother explaining this..?). U are saying that this has low scientific worth (am i right?), and i won't be arguing with that. It is not the best, but he did some test, put effort and he CONFIRMED (no, he is not a FH scientist ffs) that AT LEAST this JJ bot have a potential to be nearly unstoppable. And i won't agree that going for a ranked duel is better for analysis. U will even meet people who are crushing opponents as Raider, and Raider is in the worst duelist group actually, so it is facing the same problem as u mentioned ("So if I go and use Shugoki in 99 matches against a predictable and brain dead level 3 JJ or Conq bot and I end up with more wins than loses, will that mean Shugoki is OP or that JJ or Conq are trash tier? The answer is of course no, because they are bots with predictable patterns."), but the answer here is - no, because there are players who can use trash heroes so effectively (ledging for example), that it will prooves absolutely nothing. All we can discuss is POTENTIAL of this hero, but i don't even wanna bother talking about numbers ect. I won't make any effort and research for a reliable informations for a company who don't give a f about it. Shugoki is still not reworked (i don't care they promised he will be) but Wu-Lin exist on the same field, and this is fckin insult. I played against JJ, and I think he is too strong compare.. oh, i already wrote it, nevermind.
