Season 8 win matrix | Forums

[Tyrjo]

Yes, I was specifically talking about 1vs1 encounters. I always tend to do that with saying it directly, my bad.

What I meant by people looking at pro tier lists to much, is that in comparison to the win matrices they are irrelevant for most players. Example: Mid level console players coming to the forum and complain about how weak Aramusha is, because that is what he/she heard and that's what they want to believe. But for most players the matrix data actually is relevant, because most players play on console and most players aren't in platinum and above.

Another thing most people don't mention is that only a fraction of the player base actually contribute to the data in Duel. This is something I have talked about earlier, as I think it's important to get the whole community to participate in Duels. It would improve the matchmaking immensely.

[Vakris_One]

Yes, I was specifically talking about 1vs1 encounters. I always tend to do that with saying it directly, my bad.

What I meant by people looking at pro tier lists to much, is that in comparison to the win matrices they are irrelevant for most players. Example: Mid level console players coming to the forum and complain about how weak Aramusha is, because that is what he/she heard and that's what they want to believe. But for most players the matrix data actually is relevant, because most players play on console and most players aren't in platinum and above.

Well the objective fact still is that Aramusha is a weak duelist and a very average team hero. Objectively his feats don't give him much of any kind of team effectiveness or synergy and his kit is below average when compared to reworked vanilla heroes, DLC heroes Shaman and Highlander, all the Wu Lin and Black Prior. He is not an easy character to do well with unlike other heroes who are simply much easier to be a threat with - primarily characters with relatively safe unblockables and/or synergistic feats.

Aramusha is one of the characters that is emblematic of a benchmark for player skill progression in For Honor. To players who have not yet passed this skill benchmark he is like an oppressive end game Dark Souls boss. But to players who do progress beyond this skill hurdle he is never again a credible threat to them.

I absolutely agree that people shouldn't just take a tier list as gospel. The context of a tier list is what people should be looking at when determining how useful it is to them. However, the fact that pretty much every hero is viable at the average skill level should not be used as the basis for judging which characters are strong and which are weak because at that skill level the objective power of a hero's entire tool kit is largely irrelevant.

Another thing most people don't mention is that only a fraction of the player base actually contribute to the data in Duel. This is something I have talked about earlier, as I think it's important to get the whole community to participate in Duels. It would improve the matchmaking immensely.

They did show us the duel data for the whole playerbase that had played regular unranked duel consistently during the Season. You can't really ask for more than that because there will always be people that just don't want to play a 1v1 mode let alone playing the more intensely competitive ranked version.

[Tyrjo]

The objective fact is that Aramusha is a weak duelist in the higher tiers. Another objective fact, as you said, is that Aramusha can be oppressive below those tiers for people who don't know how to shut him down. That is the reason why the statistics look like they do.

My point was not to determine that Aramusha is a strong hero in general, but that players who haven't hit that glass ceiling yet with him actually should perform well with him. Meaning if you are in gold/silver skill and complain about not being able to win with Aramusha, you are doing something wrong, because other players seem to do well with him in those tiers.

[Vendelkin]

Duels really should be incentivized more because of how they measure hero skill. 1v1 fights happen in 4v4 modes too h7t we dont have data from them for obvious reasons.

Duels right now because of the load screen to play time ratio are just not fun/rewarding enough to entice most players.

[Jastorm187]

Aramousha also shows better in 4v4 for a couple reasons.
1) If you arent focused on him (he is a secondary attacker) his infinite chain and damage potential he can chip at a player very well and apply good pressure.
2) He is one of the top minion/pikeman killer in the game right now. In dominion you throw him mid and he can clear out faster than most which takes mid sooner which results in more points.

Remember playing objective is how you win. Push the ram and kill pikeman. Slaughter minion and hold zones. He does this very well and highly effects win rates. This is true without factoring how good/awful he is in 1v1 on heroes. If he is surrounded by pikeman his own pike man and stays in the pack it also helps any 1v1.

So im not surprised aramousha is high tier in 4v4 stats. People forget 4v4 isnt only about ganking and KD even though some people play it that way.

As for duel, at lower skill his infinite chain is hard to deal with especially with those soft feints. I used to have trouble against him till i took the time to learn his kit.

[Vakris_One]

The objective fact is that Aramusha is a weak duelist in the higher tiers. Another objective fact, as you said, is that Aramusha can be oppressive below those tiers for people who don't know how to shut him down. That is the reason why the statistics look like they do.

My point was not to determine that Aramusha is a strong hero in general, but that players who haven't hit that glass ceiling yet with him actually should perform well with him. Meaning if you are in gold/silver skill and complain about not being able to win with Aramusha, you are doing something wrong, because other players seem to do well with him in those tiers.

I get'cha. Fair point.

[Knight_Raime]

True enough about the competitive Duel and Brawl tier lists but the Dominion comp tier list is still relevant to the non-competitive game as it rates heroes based on team effectiveness, best ganks, etc.

As for Aramusha being top 5 in Duel and Dom in the win matrix, let's look at the data pool the devs used for our answer. They showed us the matrix for the entire playerbase where Orochi is in 3rd place in Duels. It goes without saying that all this shows us is that more people suck at this game or play it casually than there are actual good players.

The second set of data they showed us is 30% of the total playetbase that play ranked. 30% is a huge pool and once again the average and medium skilled players outnumber the high level players and therefore they drown out the higher level player stats such as those coming from Master and Grand Master rank because there are far fewer players in those two ranks than there are in Platinum and Diamond ranks. When the devs clump data together like this instead of showing us the individual win matrixes for each rank it just shows the majority stats (low to mid level players) drowning out the minority (high level players).

And finally we have the fact that PC and Consoles are clumped together. Consoles have the majority of the playerbase so the win matrixes are heavily skewed in favour of the console experience of the game. Which is how we get Orochi in 3rd place in Duel and Aramusha top 5 in duel and 1st place in Dominion. Two characters who are notorious for being problematic on consoles while simultaneously being incredibly weak on PC.

So basically the devs might as well have called the win matrix, "The console and low to mid level player win matrix" because those are the stats that are being overwhelmingly represented when they clump all the data together instead of showing us the data seperated by platforms and by each rank individually.

Hopefully this explains why seeing Aramusha in the top 5 is not surprising. At the majority skill level that we're being shown pretty much every character is viable with consoles swinging it even further towards characters capable of light spam.

Should mention that while what you are saying has a fair bit to do with it Aramusha actually has some nice factors in dom. He's semi decent at target swapping with his infinite combo and deadly feints. His infinite combo actually makes him pretty great at constantly destroying the enemy teams minions. Finally he has some pretty nutty damage for punishes and his heavies in general being hard to GB due to their low vulnerability windows. I suppose his BB is also decent at dealing with unlocked attacks. Not saying Mushu is amazing by any stretch but highlighting his strengths.