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In today's patch notes (though a partial list) you decided to remove Shaolin's ability to feint back into his qi from his top heavy qi attack. This was a mistake. Rather than simply raging at you i'm going to explain how this effected gameplay before, why it was beneficial to have, and why I specifically (and i'm not the only one who asked for this) wanted this to be a feature in his kit for all of his qi heavies.
How did this effect the game before:
In low tier and low mid tier this tech was not really present. At this level you have people regularly landing the triple light. Maybe going into qi for kick after a light lands. This tech didn't effect this level of play. From mid to high mid tier is when you'd start to see this move. Because at this level players are semi competent and are capable of defending themselves from a good amount of things in the game. Usually you'd only have to use this once or twice in a match before it completely throws off the other person's balance and they start to fail at defending against Shaolin. This tech benefitted this tier.
For high tier and beyond this tech was very important. At this level people are capable of keeping Shaolin out of qi consistently if Shaolin plays predictably. This tech was a boon here. because it made whiffing into qi slightly out of range a viable thing to do. As it's some what bringing you back into range (which is important for kick) and forcing the opponent to make another read. Which is beneficial for Shaolin since he hardly ever has an advantage against his opponent outside of making hitstun happen. Finally this tech had hardly any impact on 4v4 play. Because in any gank/team fight scenario you're far more likely to be hit out of it. You simply don't have the time or space to make use of it in 4's.
Why was it beneficial to have?
Shaolin is a character that's entirely based on reads. He cannot react punish players with his qi moves. This is fine design wise, but the problem comes when this guessing game doesn't have to be played. Kick has a very small range to it. So small that whiffing a backwards light into qi always puts you out of kick range. What does this mean? It means you can space out shaolin's kick and Shaolin has no way to punish this. As he's forced to sit in place inside qi. And all of his options outside of kick are reactable. His only 500ms attack beyond his kick is his top light. And you're already blocking top anyway to avoid the 400ms light in neutral. So he can't really threaten with that attack either despite it being one of the two moves he has that have range (the other being his 700ms side qi heavy.)
Having this option available gave Shaolin the ability to still be threatening without hitstun. You had to guess between a committed to top heavy or not which was capable of hitting reaction dodges. And him feinting out of it normally or going into qi and going for either a kick or a side heavy. This wasn't safe though. As you can punish him for whiffing into qi on read. And you can attempt to option select parry his top heavy. The point is it essentially makes his kick always a threat. Which is vital to his mix up game.
Why did we want this to be a feature for his kit (including his other qi heavies?)
Because in higher level play shaolin does not have any effective pressuring tool versus a standard guard hero who turtles. his 400ms top light is good at interrupting some offense like warden's shoulder bash mix up. But even at that level of play if you used it too often it could be parried because neutral attacks are not variable via a delay. And 500ms lights are trivial. Whiffing a light into qi doesn't work on a turtle. And whiffing into heavy does not work against someone who stays in your face. Shaolin would have to whiff out of range to get into qi. Which removes kick from the scenario. Leaving him with 3 options.
feint out into forward dash heavy, qi top light, and qi side heavy. forward dash heavy could, if spaced properly take you into range but still whiff so you hold into qi to try and threaten with mix up. But if the person knows you're attempting this they can punish you on prediction with a fast zone/bash. Qi top light has range but is not variable and easily blockable/parryable. Can only realistically use this if someone tries to do something offensive. and qi side heavy. Which is a 700ms heavy with a short feint window. Since no hitstun is involved and you're using it for range I can just block/parry if you commit. Worse yet if I happen to have superior block on dodge.
Shaolin does not have good defense. He has reflex guard. And in qi he can't cgb, parry, or dodge. Feinting out of qi prevents you from doing everything sands blocking for 500ms. SInce shaolin can't dodge out of qi this means he can be predictably punished for using qi often versus most of the strong mix ups in the game. And because of how qi works he can't just simply wait out an opponents response and try to punish it. He essentially has a short window to attempt something before he's very likely to get punished. Not to mention all of his feint windows for his qi attacks sans his top heavy are short.
I'll summarize. Shaolin can be turtled against in high tier play vs static guard heros. His offense entirely relies on getting hit stun. Which doesn't happen if the person is blocking properly and staying in your face to punish a whiffed heavy into qi. He's not safe enough in qi to account for this turtle issue. Giving him the ability to feint into qi from his top heavy and his side heavy will allow him to always threaten with his qi kick without having to rely on landing a hit. This does not directly buff him as I mentioned already you can punish him essentially twice for attempting to do so. But doing so in either case requires the opponent to make as hard of a read as Shaolin has to. This feature would have very little impact on lower tier play simply because there is no need to perform these mix ups there since shaolin regularly lands attacks.
To close Please for the love of god don't let him dodge out of qi. Shaolin's poor defense in qi entirely justifies the potential strength his kit has. You would not be addressing his issue against static guard heros by doing this. His offense would still be lacking in high tier vs static guard turtles. You'd only make him harder to punish for lower tiers of play. You'd be creating a problem, not fixing one.
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It's far more than a slap on the wrist. But you keep on raging at the hero instead of learning how to deal with him.Originally Posted by Kryltic Go to original post
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I've suggested in the past to change his damage numbers around for his triple light so it's 12 damage into qi mix up instead of the current 18. Would still be the same amount of total damage though. Problem with nerfing that is essentially you'd be making the choice for the player if you get the damage numbers wrong. The idea is to make it a choice for the player on wether they want the meatier confirmed damage or if they want to try to get more through qi.Originally Posted by Illyrian_King Go to original post
I've seen the argument of nerfing his confirmed light off of kick from 20 to 18 in combination with changing triple light damage numbers around. I'd also be fine with this. As for nerfing any other damage from him i'm not entirely sure. Only one I could maybe see is his side heavy from qi.
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Well unfortunately for you they're looking to increase the read part of the game. So. good luck.Originally Posted by EvoXTalhante Go to original post
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I'm going to have to disagree with this. Personally I'm not a fan of "wiff tech" and believe it shouldn't be in the game. This goes for Highlanders wiff lite into OS as well.
It's just not realistic to do in a fight since it would not work in any real scenario. (Not saying this game is realistic, I'm just saying)
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Whiff tech means something different as far as competitive speak goes. But I understand the general feeling. I'm not overly fond of this kind of play either. But it's the only way I can see them buffing Shaolin to be able to deal with turtles without tipping his potential offense to be insane.Originally Posted by Baggin_ Go to original post
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