For the ones who don't get it.. | Forums

[Ghost-Ami]

Well the MK14 is really just a reworked M14. The M14 was a great rifle, it was just out of its time, namely way too much weight to lug through the jungles of South East Asia. So while the M16 took over as the standard infantry rifle the M14 remained in use for designated marksman. The biggest problem with the M14 was that it had(and still has) and above axis action(like the AK47) which causes considerable climb in full auto. Though it was a great rifle. There were 9 spots on a T-72 battle tank where an M14, shot by a good marksman could punch through the body of the tank and harm the crew.
The SCAR is like that. Even if you fix its upper receiver harmonic so it doesn't kill your optics(or put their special mounts on your optics to keep that from happening), and work out the feed issues, it is still a battle rifle and not a carbine. It will always excel at shooting at distances and situational anti-material. It really won't ever be a CQB rifle. It's just too heavy, and has too much stuff hanging off the sides that can get hung up.
In this game it works really well for distances. You want to pop some dude 300m away, it will do that for you really well.

All your arguments for an intermediate cartridge weapon are totally spot on of course. I just tend to have a preference for compromise weapons, namely battle rifles to split the difference between assault rifles and DMRs but also PDWs to split the difference between assault rifles and SMGs.

The majority of Wildlands comprises the sort of operations that make a battle rifle feel natural to me. There are a few CQC focussed missions, but mostly you're out in the open engaging at what are, by the lights of the game's limited draw distance, medium to long ranges.

The SCAR, for all its size, is really quite light even with the STD barrel, it's just a little unwieldy for CQC. On balance, given the overall mission spec, I'd rather lean in to range and power---a "better to have it and not need it" sort of thing---and make do with a slightly ungainly weapon for CQC when that comes up. Or make more use of my sidearm.

[Bone_Frog]

All your arguments for an intermediate cartridge weapon are totally spot on of course. I just tend to have a preference for compromise weapons, namely battle rifles to split the difference between assault rifles and DMRs but also PDWs to split the difference between assault rifles and SMGs.

The majority of Wildlands comprises the sort of operations that make a battle rifle feel natural to me. There are a few CQC focussed missions, but mostly you're out in the open engaging at what are, by the lights of the game's limited draw distance, medium to long ranges.

The SCAR, for all its size, is really quite light even with the STD barrel, it's just a little unwieldy for CQC. On balance, given the overall mission spec, I'd rather lean in to range and power---a "better to have it and not need it" sort of thing---and make do with a slightly ungainly weapon for CQC when that comes up. Or make more use of my sidearm.

One thing that I think the game got right with the firearms is that, by and large, they work at the ranges they were intended to. Some of the PDWs have a louder sound signature than their real world counterparts. Then again some of the rifles have a quieter sound signature than their real world counterparts.

My main issue is that the draw distance is so short, making the sniper rifles superfluous. Any infantryman can down an enemy at 400m with an M4 30 out of 40 times. The SR25 with the G28 scope and extended mag works well too. Or just with an ACOG, like the SR25 Jungle. If we could get a G2 Precision I'd be really happy, though it would probably be way overtuned for game balance.

[Bone_Frog]

So today was the first day that I carried a sniper as a main(those challenges). What the heck is up with the ammo limits? I mean seriously 68 rounds? Three mags in an SR25... I mean if I can carry 225 rounds of 5.56 I should be able to carry at least 120 rounds of 7.62.

This is again where we need an encumbrance system. These arbitrary values are rather silly.

[Virtual-Chris]

One thing that I think the game got right with the firearms is that, by and large, they work at the ranges they were intended to. Some of the PDWs have a louder sound signature than their real world counterparts. Then again some of the rifles have a quieter sound signature than their real world counterparts.

My main issue is that the draw distance is so short, making the sniper rifles superfluous. Any infantryman can down an enemy at 400m with an M4 30 out of 40 times. The SR25 with the G28 scope and extended mag works well too. Or just with an ACOG, like the SR25 Jungle. If we could get a G2 Precision I'd be really happy, though it would probably be way overtuned for game balance.

Not only are the draw distances short, but the distance at which you can actually alert an enemy is ridiculously short. There’s seldom a need to engage a target beyond 200m, just move closer... they often won’t detect you until you’re within 100m. Sniper rifles are completely unnecessary as a result... they are there strictly to support that play style.

I think the game does a reasonable job of characterizing the different weapon classes. I think the SCAR in the game is a good balance between DMR and AR but with a 7.62 round it should do noticably more damage than it does with less bullet drop. It seems like the dev team largely ignored that aspect of this rifle. The HK416 seems to be well implemented... it’ seems to be one of the strongest and most balanced ARs. I’m now using the LVOA-C Gucci gun for something fun and different, as it looks cool, but it’s damage is a bit off compared to other 5.56 ARs. It seems like the devs put too much emphasis on design, barrel length, and accessories in determining rifle performance, with little consideration for cartridge.

[Bone_Frog]

Not only are the draw distances short, but the distance at which you can actually alert an enemy is ridiculously short. There’s seldom a need to engage a target beyond 200m, just move closer... they often won’t detect you until you’re within 100m. Sniper rifles are completely unnecessary as a result... they are there strictly to support that play style.

I think the game does a reasonable job of characterizing the different weapon classes. I think the SCAR in the game is a good balance between DMR and AR but with a 7.62 round it should do noticably more damage than it does with less bullet drop. It seems like the dev team largely ignored that aspect of this rifle. The HK416 seems to be well implemented... it’ seems to be one of the strongest and most balanced ARs. I’m now using the LVOA-C Gucci gun for something fun and different, as it looks cool, but it’s damage is a bit off compared to other 5.56 ARs. It seems like the devs put too much emphasis on design, barrel length, and accessories in determining rifle performance, with little consideration for cartridge.

In fairness the LVOA-C isn't chambered in 5.56 it is chambered in .223. The last production line of LVOA-C before War Sports went bankrupt offered a .223 Wylde(which will fire a 5.56) by special order. I don't know how many were actually produced. The .223 though the same caliber has a much lower pressure than the 5.56. Lower pressure equates to lower terminal ballistics. In layman's terms less damage.

In short the LVOA-C is a range rifle. It is a tacticool range rifle, however, it didn't fair well when used in combat, typically by contractors which is why War Sports is no longer in business. My guess is, it will probably start disappearing from video games, as its inclusion was part of War Sports paid advertising.

Also part of their built in recoil reduction system is a porting of gasses in the vertical plane. In other words it bleeds off pressure from behind the bullet to push the barrel back down. That is not designed to give your bullet maximum punch.

Yeah, I'm gonna say that Ubi got it right with that rifle.

[Virtual-Chris]

In fairness the LVOA-C isn't chambered in 5.56 it is chambered in .223. The last production line of LVOA-C before War Sports went bankrupt offered a .223 Wylde(which will fire a 5.56) by special order. I don't know how many were actually produced. The .223 though the same caliber has a much lower pressure than the 5.56. Lower pressure equates to lower terminal ballistics. In layman's terms less damage.

In short the LVOA-C is a range rifle. It is a tacticool range rifle, however, it didn't fair well when used in combat, typically by contractors which is why War Sports is no longer in business. My guess is, it will probably start disappearing from video games, as its inclusion was part of War Sports paid advertising.

Also part of their built in recoil reduction system is a porting of gasses in the vertical plane. In other words it bleeds off pressure from behind the bullet to push the barrel back down. That is not designed to give your bullet maximum punch.

Yeah, I'm gonna say that Ubi got it right with that rifle.

Fascinating... thanks for sharing all that. I have to agree then... it seems appropriate given the RW.

What's your take on reliability being absent from the mechanics in game. It's obviously a major consideration in the real-world, but I have to admit, it would quickly become frustrating in-game. Far Cry 2 had weapon jams after extended use, and it was not at all enjoyable.

[Bone_Frog]

Fascinating... thanks for sharing all that. I have to agree then... it seems appropriate given the RW.

What's your take on reliability being absent from the mechanics in game. It's obviously a major consideration in the real-world, but I have to admit, it would quickly become frustrating in-game. Far Cry 2 had weapon jams after extended use, and it was not at all enjoyable.

Generally speaking a well maintained firearm doesn't malfunction.

I was always OCD about cleaning my firearms, and so it was right up their with drinking coffee and showering in the morning as standard thing to do every day. Doing that I put over 10,000 rounds through an HKUSP and only had 4 feed issues. One was down to bad ammo, and three were that it needed a deep cleaning as the extractor had become fouled.

My personal 416, that is on its second barrel and over 35,000 rounds through the receiver and I have never had a feed issue.

I also own an AK, I run really cheap ammo through it. I've had seven malfunctions on it. Two were down to the cheap ammo, five were down to a damaged magazine that wasn't seating right.

Now there are some firearms that are known to have issues. Most of those are fixed after you either put a thousand rounds through it, or have a good armorer work it over. They typically are down to poor quality control in the milling of the parts leaving burrs ect behind. For instance the amorers at Benning seem to have been able to sweet talk the MK17s for the Rangers. The armorers at Coronado, and Little Creek not so much, part of that might be budgetary and part of it might be just not caring enough when they have other options that fit their mission profile.

So... Putting malfunction mechanic in game. The game that did it best was America's Army, even they dropped it. There is no way to do it in a way that would actually match the reality. Namely that the vast majority of malfunctions come from user error or user negligence. I mean if you are fielding something that was malfunctioning in the shoot house, you are just asking to get shot. So the rest comes down to proper maintenance and care. I don't care if it is Ranger selection, SF Selection, BUD/S, Marsoc or whatever the Air Force has going, by the time you graduate to spec ops you have learned attention to detail, and if you haven't gotten it down, your squad/team mates are going to make sure you do it on the things that count. You move on from there to Tier 1, same thing squared and cubed. I don't see the firearms malfunctioning. If any of them would it would be the ones you pick up from SB. In my experience terrorists and narcos don't take very good care of their weapons.

[Virtual-Chris]

Generally speaking a well maintained firearm doesn't malfunction.

I was always OCD about cleaning my firearms, and so it was right up their with drinking coffee and showering in the morning as standard thing to do every day. Doing that I put over 10,000 rounds through an HKUSP and only had 4 feed issues. One was down to bad ammo, and three were that it needed a deep cleaning as the extractor had become fouled.

My personal 416, that is on its second barrel and over 35,000 rounds through the receiver and I have never had a feed issue.

I also own an AK, I run really cheap ammo through it. I've had seven malfunctions on it. Two were down to the cheap ammo, five were down to a damaged magazine that wasn't seating right.

Now there are some firearms that are known to have issues. Most of those are fixed after you either put a thousand rounds through it, or have a good armorer work it over. They typically are down to poor quality control in the milling of the parts leaving burrs ect behind. For instance the amorers at Benning seem to have been able to sweet talk the MK17s for the Rangers. The armorers at Coronado, and Little Creek not so much, part of that might be budgetary and part of it might be just not caring enough when they have other options that fit their mission profile.

So... Putting malfunction mechanic in game. The game that did it best was America's Army, even they dropped it. There is no way to do it in a way that would actually match the reality. Namely that the vast majority of malfunctions come from user error or user negligence. I mean if you are fielding something that was malfunctioning in the shoot house, you are just asking to get shot. So the rest comes down to proper maintenance and care. I don't care if it is Ranger selection, SF Selection, BUD/S, Marsoc or whatever the Air Force has going, by the time you graduate to spec ops you have learned attention to detail, and if you haven't gotten it down, your squad/team mates are going to make sure you do it on the things that count. You move on from there to Tier 1, same thing squared and cubed. I don't see the firearms malfunctioning. If any of them would it would be the ones you pick up from SB. In my experience terrorists and narcos don't take very good care of their weapons.

Wow... another deeply insightful post. Thanks for sharing. It all makes perfect sense, and I guess it's a reasonable assumption that the operators we play in this game are keeping their weapons well maintained.

[Megalodon26]

Yes, I remember when HK was first releasing the 416, I saw a demonstration video, where the user submerged one in a barrel of water for several second, and then fired off a few rounds, without draining it it. Then buried it in a box of sand, then fired it again, without issue. That is what makes it perfect for devgru, because they could use it while doing a beach landing, and not worry about them getting jammed up.

[Bone_Frog]

Wow... another deeply insightful post. Thanks for sharing. It all makes perfect sense, and I guess it's a reasonable assumption that the operators we play in this game are keeping their weapons well maintained.

I'm gonna expound on this some more. Here are the three most common malfunctions in order of occurrence.
1) Failure to fire. Cause: Bad Ammo or User Error. Solution: push pull the magazine to ensure that it is seated correctly then cycle bolt to clear the malfunctioning round and ensure feed. That works really well in standard infantry combat. In CQB I would drop the rifle to sling, and draw my pistol. Most Spec Ops guys at this point shoot ambi and specifically side arm with their "off hand". Which allows an unobstructed hip holster on their "off" side. Under force on force training(i.e. when you are both shooting at each other with sims) I could draw and put the first one in your head in.82 seconds, the second following on at 1.2 seconds. That is quicker than the time it would take me to cycle the bolt and clear the malfunction. This has very little practicality in game as the time to transition between weapons is too long, as well as immediate solution is situationally dependent and wouldn't really work well in game play.

2) Double Feed(two or more rounds all try to feed into chamber at the same time). Cause: Damaged magazine or user error. Either the magazine took damage at some point and is malfunctioning or the user jammed the magazine in to hard causing rounds to dislodge, or they improperly cycled the bolt. Solution: Drop the problematic mag(unless you absolutely need it) cycle bolt to clear malfunction. Reload and carry on. Again if you are engaged at distance in an infantry style combat that works fine. In CQB switch weapons until the room is cleared, then clear the weapon when you rejoin the train. Again not really practical in the game. I've only personally experienced this organically once and that was on an AK with a "training purpose only" mag that I had pretty badly abused.

3) Brass over bolt. Cause: User error/abuse. This one typically occurs in training. Specifically when you are running lots of multi-mag shot strings with minimal time for cool off. You load up again, go to the briefing for the next course of fire, rifle cools. Swelling and cooling differentials between brass and steel cause the casing to get lodged in the chamber, and you have an extractor failure that causes the brass to lodge over the bolt/bolt carrier. Infantry guys might see this in extended combat as well. It is considered a catastrophic failure. Solution get to hard cover, extract the magazine(this may take a bit as it can be stuck) then through a variety of methods work the brass out. I had this happen to me once in training. After firing a string, we loaded up for another go, and went to the briefing. During the briefing, my hot rifle cooked off the round in the chamber. The instructor looked over calm as can be and said, "That gentlemen is why you always keep your rifles pointed up." The brass got lodged pretty hard over the bolt. I essentially had to kickstart the bolt carrier to get it loose. Took me a good 90 seconds to get it out. I really don't see this happening in game at all.

Yes, I remember when HK was first releasing the 416, I saw a demonstration video, where the user submerged one in a barrel of water for several second, and then fired off a few rounds, without draining it it. Then buried it in a box of sand, then fired it again, without issue. That is what makes it perfect for devgru, because they could use it while doing a beach landing, and not worry about them getting jammed up.

Yeah videos like that are pretty gimmicky. Any rifle that gets fielded for combat has gone through much much worse. If they can't do what you just described, unlubricated, they don't even go on for testing and consideration.