Shaolin specific changes | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

I'm not asking for this to be a priority over other characters. nor am I saying in anyway that Shaolin is weak and needs help. I absolutely recognize the potential strength his offense has. These are simply quality of life changes that I feel would benefit Shaolin in the long run:

~Able to feint qi heavies (side heavy, top heavy, heavy after kick) back into qi stance
~triple poke damage numbers change from 12, 6, 6 to 6, 6, 12
~dodge heavies can now chain into his combo


Why feint back into qi? Currently Shaolin can be turtled against standard guard heros. And whiffing into qi is punishable on prediction by a wide variety of things due to his poor defense both in qi and after feinting qi. This change gives him more mix up potential after a whiff. Which means he should stand a better chance against people turtling without directly buffing any attack from his kit. feinting back into qi from the top heavy is already punishable as is. So you'd punish it in much the same way. But being able to do it from a multitood of attacks means you have to be much better at reading shaolin than is currently required. Which I believe to be a fair trade considering Shaolin can only read people. He can't do anything with qi on reaction.


Why the triple poke damage change? This change is targeted specifically for mid tier and low tier. It wouldn't have an effect on high tier. The current problem is double poke into qi into kick is guaranteed vs most players simply due to their lack of knowledge/reflexes. Which means 38 damage everytime from neutral. This change brings that punish down to 32. Which is much more in line with punishes in that kind of area. But further more it will give the choice actual meaning for these players. Do they want to try to get 32 damage and potentially risk getting GBed? Or would they just rather go for the easy 24 damage?


Why the dodge heavy change? Outside target swapping purposes due to it's lower recovery it's not something that is ever really used because it's almost as slow as kensei's dodge attack and it isn't feintable. At least with kensei's dodge heavy you can threaten with your top heavy mix up a little or go for something else. Simply put the risk of using these attacks is not worth the reward. So allowing it to chain would make that risk sufficient and he could get into his mix up should the light not get blocked/parried.

[EvoX.]

Buffing the strongest, most unreactable Wu Lin, an already S-tier character? No.

Only one deserving of a slight buff is Nuxia.

[Knight_Raime]

Buffing the strongest, most unreactable Wu Lin, an already S-tier character? No.

Only one deserving of a slight buff is Nuxia.

Every wu-lin hero is A tier except JJ who is B.
Shaolin can be turtled. He's not S tier.
Tandi is the stronger duelist (admittingly not by much) and a better 4's character.

EDIT:

Here is a good write up explaining why Tiandi is so good. https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive...ist_placement/

To some up shaolin's current placement (which is directly above Tiandi) is because shaolin's offense is technically better.
But the two biggest factors for duel placements are safety and match ups VS people higher than you/S tiers.

Tiandi has more favorable/even match ups versus all the people in front of him. Versus shaolin having even or poor match ups for everyone in front of him. Not to mention Shaolin is very unsafe due to poor defense in qi and after feinting qi. (can't parry, cgb, or dodge out of qi. after feinting qi shaolin can't do anything but block for 500ms.) Basically put shaolin doesn't have an answer to fast bashes and unblockable based mix ups. His qi stance also puts him in place. So he can't effectively pressure heros who rely on out of lock mix ups. nor deal with unblockable based mix ups. Which basically all of the heros in front of him have.

His offense is overly valued.

[Siegfried-Z]

Every wu-lin hero is A tier except JJ who is B.
Shaolin can be turtled. He's not S tier.
Tandi is the stronger duelist (admittingly not by much) and a better 4's character.

EDIT:

Here is a good write up explaining why Tiandi is so good. https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive...ist_placement/

To some up shaolin's current placement (which is directly above Tiandi) is because shaolin's offense is technically better.
But the two biggest factors for duel placements are safety and match ups VS people higher than you/S tiers.

Tiandi has more favorable/even match ups versus all the people in front of him. Versus shaolin having even or poor match ups for everyone in front of him. Not to mention Shaolin is very unsafe due to poor defense in qi and after feinting qi. (can't parry, cgb, or dodge out of qi. after feinting qi shaolin can't do anything but block for 500ms.) Basically put shaolin doesn't have an answer to fast bashes and unblockable based mix ups. His qi stance also puts him in place. So he can't effectively pressure heros who rely on out of lock mix ups. nor deal with unblockable based mix ups. Which basically all of the heros in front of him have.

His offense is overly valued.

Shaolin has been placed as the best char in many tier list by high level players (duel pov).

Shaolin and Tiandi are both insane, Shaolin for his unpredictable mix up and Tiandi for his spammy style.

JJ B ? Again because a simple dodge can avoid everything etc ? JJ is currently the best Char in both 1v1 and 4V4. 62% win ratio in duel so i don't even imagine how far he is in 4v4, probably arround 70%.

In my opinion all Wulin should get a slight nerf except Nuxia which could have a slight buff.

Tiandi should not have 400ms lights : only this.
Shaolin : tbh i don't know what to change to reduce him a bit without breaking his kit. His lights in chain should be slower and maybe no sup block in qi so that he can't turtle and has too do something.
JJ : His light animation gonna be fix and that's good. But otherwise his zone should do 20 dmg max, His lights 18-16 max and his Ub 38 max looking at how it is easy to touch opponents with compared to kensei or Warden UB. His kick should not wallsplat too.

It looks a big nerf for JJ, but tbh this is just to makes his dmg on par with the rest of the cast. At the end a 34 dmg double light, a 20 dmg zone, a 38 UB and a bash with 18 guaranteed dmg is not low at all.

[Knight_Raime]

Shaolin has been placed as the best char in many tier list by high level players (duel pov).

Shaolin and Tiandi are both insane, Shaolin for his unpredictable mix up and Tiandi for his spammy style.

JJ B ? Again because a simple dodge can avoid everything etc ? JJ is currently the best Char in both 1v1 and 4V4. 62% win ratio in duel so i don't even imagine how far he is in 4v4, probably arround 70%.

In my opinion all Wulin should get a slight nerf except Nuxia which could have a slight buff.

Tiandi should not have 400ms lights : only this.
Shaolin : tbh i don't know what to change to reduce him a bit without breaking his kit. His lights in chain should be slower and maybe no sup block in qi so that he can't turtle and has too do something.
JJ : His light animation gonna be fix and that's good. But otherwise his zone should do 20 dmg max, His lights 18-16 max and his Ub 38 max looking at how it is easy to touch opponents with compared to kensei or Warden UB. His kick should not wallsplat too.

It looks a big nerf for JJ, but tbh this is just to makes his dmg on par with the rest of the cast. At the end a 34 dmg double light, a 20 dmg zone, a 38 UB and a bash with 18 guaranteed dmg is not low at all.

The only accepted legitimate tier list is the one on the competitive subreddit. Which even the devs/ubi members have referenced to. Shaolin is placed third in A tier. This is because his offense is not safe what so ever. And the fact that you can turtle him/null his kick side dash mix up via spacing. Shaolin is very weak defensively.

JJ is B tier in duels because he has no offense. His dash side heavy mix up is entirely avoided by back dashing on reaction. You can also smack/gb him out of it due to how slow it is and how little I frames it has. JJ's forward dodge heavy mix up is also avoidable by side dodging on the right time or just back dodging entirely. The only notable thing about him as far as duels go is dodge into sifu's can avoid a fair bit of pressure. But JJ usually can't punish after avoiding said things. so it's more of a benefit in 4's.

Tiandi only has 400ms lights from his finishers. Tiandi can actually be very good defensively. But against heros that are good at being defensive he struggles to get into his chains. He can avoid a lot of bash based mix ups but he can't consistently punish said things after avoiding. He's right below shaolin in A tier because of how safe he is and having 400ms lights simply makes him better than a lot of other heros.

The only direct buff I give Shaolin in this post is comboing off of his side dodge heavies into combo. The light damage changes on triple light is a nerf for him at content relevant to your level. And the ability to feint back into qi from his qi heavies is not a direct buff as he's still just as punishable as before. it just gives him slightly more pressure VS standard guard heros in high tier. this change would have basically no impact at the level you play because the players you likely play against don't really try mixing up things. they just go for the same tactics and let raw things fly all the time because people struggle to defend against the simplest of things.

[Siegfried-Z]

The only accepted legitimate tier list is the one on the competitive subreddit. Which even the devs/ubi members have referenced to. Shaolin is placed third in A tier. This is because his offense is not safe what so ever. And the fact that you can turtle him/null his kick side dash mix up via spacing. Shaolin is very weak defensively.

JJ is B tier in duels because he has no offense. His dash side heavy mix up is entirely avoided by back dashing on reaction. You can also smack/gb him out of it due to how slow it is and how little I frames it has. JJ's forward dodge heavy mix up is also avoidable by side dodging on the right time or just back dodging entirely. The only notable thing about him as far as duels go is dodge into sifu's can avoid a fair bit of pressure. But JJ usually can't punish after avoiding said things. so it's more of a benefit in 4's.

Tiandi only has 400ms lights from his finishers. Tiandi can actually be very good defensively. But against heros that are good at being defensive he struggles to get into his chains. He can avoid a lot of bash based mix ups but he can't consistently punish said things after avoiding. He's right below shaolin in A tier because of how safe he is and having 400ms lights simply makes him better than a lot of other heros.

The only direct buff I give Shaolin in this post is comboing off of his side dodge heavies into combo. The light damage changes on triple light is a nerf for him at content relevant to your level. And the ability to feint back into qi from his qi heavies is not a direct buff as he's still just as punishable as before. it just gives him slightly more pressure VS standard guard heros in high tier. this change would have basically no impact at the level you play because the players you likely play against don't really try mixing up things. they just go for the same tactics and let raw things fly all the time because people struggle to defend against the simplest of things.

Shaolin has enough pressure ans mix up abilities. Going back into Qi stance after his UB is enough and considering how it is easy for him to chain, his dash looks fine as he is.
"The light damage changes on triple light is a nerf for him at content relevant to your level" do you mean my level or depending on people level ?

Tiandi, well i don't like him because as everything is so fast in his kit, he oblige you to keep distance and to play very defensivly. Being agressive against him except with few char is to sign your own death.

About JJ i know all these point knights but the reality shows something else, specially in 4v4 he is currently breaking the game. Yesterday again i've done one single Breach with him and this is the only game among the 15 i've played yesterday where i've got 15 kills more than the second highest of my teams.. JJ is an easy mode tbh. Hurry to see his lights animation beiing fixed.

[Knight_Raime]

Shaolin has enough pressure ans mix up abilities. Going back into Qi stance after his UB is enough and considering how it is easy for him to chain, his dash looks fine as he is.
"The light damage changes on triple light is a nerf for him at content relevant to your level" do you mean my level or depending on people level ?

Tiandi, well i don't like him because as everything is so fast in his kit, he oblige you to keep distance and to play very defensivly. Being agressive against him except with few char is to sign your own death.

About JJ i know all these point knights but the reality shows something else, specially in 4v4 he is currently breaking the game. Yesterday again i've done one single Breach with him and this is the only game among the 15 i've played yesterday where i've got 15 kills more than the second highest of my teams.. JJ is an easy mode tbh. Hurry to see his lights animation beiing fixed.

He really doesn't vs standard guard in high tier. I'm just going to chalk up your points about Shaolin to lack of understanding his kit/match ups. I regularly play against people in high tier with him. He's really not hard to keep out of qi stance and turtle. You don't have to believe me. Makes no difference to me either way. Post was mainly for the mods to pick up and give to the devs as feedback like anything else that's posted here.

Aside from his 400ms light finishers everything else he has is pretty slow. Sans his dodge lights and neutral lights. both 500ms. Tiandi doesn't have a lot of pressure. it's more so he's good at defending himself. His 400ms lights allow him to have any kind of offense.

"reality shows something else." No. JJ looks stronger than he is kit wise. This stems from his wonky animations which are being fixed in the next update. Guarantee you his win rate is going to drop once people can actually see what he's doing. and in 4's the major thing carrying him is his feats. Which are busted and need nerfing. his actual kit is alright in a team fight but not strong because all things are perfectly reactable/avoidable with a back dodge. The one thing his kit gives him besides decent defense from dodge into sifu's during anti gank situations is the fact that his kick can easily set up things for allies as well as himself He's good in 4's. But not really because of his kit. And either way he doesn't have an actual offense. Which makes him bad.

[Herbstlicht]

Hmm, I think I'd agree with these Shaolin Changes. Though I think it would be a buff that can be felt even at mid tier play. But overall, more flow in gameplay would be helping a lot. Furthermore, I fully agree that the WuLin mostly do not need nerfs, except for JJ. In teamfights he is over the top. I am not absolutely sure about it, but I guess on revenge activation parry he can get a 96 damage punish? On a simple heavy parry even outside of revenge he gets his zone that hits everyone surrounding him for quiet a chunk of damage and he gets revenge rather swiftly. Add to this his overall kit that is rather strong in defensive situations - and group fights - and you really got your group fight monster. And I know, the "theory", or from a 1on1 perspective, everything might be easy. But right now, it is not, JJ is dominating fights and this needs to change. And though the animation changes might help a lot, I am sure it won't be enough.

However, one has to figure in console too here. Ubi does with their data. So it might be that in the end JJ stays on the stronger side on console, but on the weaker side on PC. We'll just have to see.

[Siegfried-Z]

He really doesn't vs standard guard in high tier. I'm just going to chalk up your points about Shaolin to lack of understanding his kit/match ups. I regularly play against people in high tier with him. He's really not hard to keep out of qi stance and turtle. You don't have to believe me. Makes no difference to me either way. Post was mainly for the mods to pick up and give to the devs as feedback like anything else that's posted here.

Aside from his 400ms light finishers everything else he has is pretty slow. Sans his dodge lights and neutral lights. both 500ms. Tiandi doesn't have a lot of pressure. it's more so he's good at defending himself. His 400ms lights allow him to have any kind of offense.

"reality shows something else." No. JJ looks stronger than he is kit wise. This stems from his wonky animations which are being fixed in the next update. Guarantee you his win rate is going to drop once people can actually see what he's doing. and in 4's the major thing carrying him is his feats. Which are busted and need nerfing. his actual kit is alright in a team fight but not strong because all things are perfectly reactable/avoidable with a back dodge. The one thing his kit gives him besides decent defense from dodge into sifu's during anti gank situations is the fact that his kick can easily set up things for allies as well as himself He's good in 4's. But not really because of his kit. And either way he doesn't have an actual offense. Which makes him bad.

I have only 2 reps on Shaolin, but i'm not wrong saying he is a strong pick, fix guard or not while obviously reflex guard struggles more against him.
It is not about did i believe you or not, this is a pov question. Is there an absolute truth ? nope

Tiandi is the opposite things than Shaolin, his mix up is more limited but works very easly. 400ms lights finisher and palm strike are enough to score a lot of dmg in a pretty safe way. His zone is also pretty fast and good to interupt mix up or zone option select.
As you know i'm not a fan of 400ms mooves, i just don't get why after all complains about it they give this to a Vanguard.

JJ, well i agree we should wait and see how his animation beiing fix affect his win rate. But overall i don't get why does he get that much higher dmg ouputt than any others 21 char of the cast.

[Herbstlicht]

Hmm. Just my 2 cents why see Tiandi balanced: To get to his finisher, a 500 ms light or a 600ms bash needs to land. Then there is this - light, light, end. Now we are back to neutral. Its his safest highest damage as long as you consider 500ms lights safe. Bash into light might be safer, but rewards less damage. If he starts working with his zone, we see him consume very much stamina, specially when choosing to feint. Tiandi cant chain stuff into one another, damage is medium, punish is medium, so we are at a hero with versatile kit that still lacks an unblockable for 4on4. Not saying he needs this, but guess Kensei, Warden and even Raider can take a lot of use out of unblockables in teamfights. Remove tiandis 400 ms attack and give him more mixup and unblockable for 40+ damage? fine ..
I mean heavy, vanguard, assassin - it doesnt mean anything those days. Same for hard or easy. Highlander maybe harder to play, but besides him, most other heroes are medium to easy.
Something though I would generally be very grateful though: nice suggeytions like ramies that could enrich moveset and flow of a character can be very nice. Tiandi misses some flow for example because things don't chain into each other. Same for monk. So improving on this without making something too strong would be nice.